00:10: From the Madison Metropolitan School District, this is Lead to Liberate, a podcast documenting stories of inspiration, growth, and empowerment across our schools.

 

 

00:28: Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins: I just really love that music. Wow, gets me going every time. Welcome back to our listeners. I am Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins, the proud superintendent of Madison Metropolitan School District, and you are here with us on Lead to Liberate. Each week I've been bringing you an outstanding, outstanding staff member. This week, we have an opportunity to hear from one of our very own, starting elementary school here, middle school, high school, went off to college, went to a HBCU, came back and now one of our associate superintendents, often referred to as the ‘Baby Superintendent.’ Now, we have with us today, Ms. Carlettra Stanford. How are you today Ms. Stanford? 

 

01:07: Carlettra Stanford: I am great. How are you Dr. Jenkins? 

 

01:10: Dr. Jenkins: I'm doing well. Hey, we've been hearing about all the work that you're doing now. Knowing that you are a former student, you came back as a teacher, as a principal of my elementary school, Mendota. Okay. That's an inside joke. [Laughter] But that's my elementary school, Mendota. How are things going for you now? You're going from a teacher principal. Now you're the Associate Superintendent? 

 

01:32: Ms. Stanford: Yes. So I am a proud graduate of East High School. Go Purgolders! And, um, I'm just happy to be back in my hometown. I often joke and say that I am from Madison, but I was actually born in Marks, Mississippi. But I had the opportunity to matriculate through MMSD schools. And so, I started here in first grade, I believe it was, and went all the way up to high school. When I decided to come back as a teacher, I originally did not want to be a teacher. I often tell the story that my dream was to be a pediatrician, but everything that I did, pointed towards students, and working with students and working with families. So when I had the opportunity to come back home, I did jump at that opportunity, and started my educational career in MMSD at what was then Glendale Elementary School, but is now Dr. Henderson Elementary School. So I started off as a classroom teacher. I was then a literacy coach, worked my way up to a Title One Schoolwide Facilitator, and then became a principal of an elementary school that just happened to be the elementary school that I attended, Gompers Elementary School. 

 

02:44: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, that’s it. Wow, that was really awesome. Now you say you came back? [Yes.] Where did you go to college? 

 

02:49: Ms. Stanford: Oh, how can I even forget that? I went to the Spelman College in Atlanta, Georgia. And so, just a proud graduate of that HBCU. And so, um, I also attended University of Wisconsin-Madison as well, where I earned my masters. 

 

03:04: Dr. Jenkins: Wow. And understand right now that you are pursuing your doctorate degree from…?

 

03:09: Ms. Stanford: From Edgewood College. [Okay] So, I'm working on my doctorate right now. Phew. Yeah, that's quite the journey. [Laughter] A lot of work, but I am in it to win it. And so I'm just trying to matriculate through that program right now. So then you will call me Dr. Stanford the next time we have a conversation. 

 

03:30: Dr. Jenkins: Oh, most definitely. Most definitely. We're looking forward to calling you Dr. Stanford. But I just tell you right now, it's so exciting to have this opportunity to have you on Lead to Liberate, because we’re talking MMSD, we talk about the things that's real on the show. We go right into it, we talk about disparities. But we know that we have a lot of wonderful things that's going on in MMSD [absolutely]. And you have been part of making those things happen. We know that the disparities are real, as we look at the nation. First of all, the nation’s at 35% proficiency rate, [yes] right? We look at the State of Wisconsin right there, relatively close to 35% – 34.99% proficiency rate, and then we look at MMSD at 37% proficiency rate, but even within a 37%, even within a 35%, there are still disparities. But we are concerned that it's a national crisis around reading, what have you done? What are you doing? And how are you planning to lead MMSD in the future around this particular type? 

 

04:33: Ms. Stanford: Well, what we are doing is we are working closely with the people who are on the frontlines, right. So we're working closely with the teachers, the folks who are in the classroom. We're looking at what are those systems and structures that we need to, to change, so that we can make sure that our students are thriving and matriculating when they're in our classrooms and MMSD. And that's not just about curriculum, that's also about social-emotional learning, that's about the way in which we see students when they step into the classroom – how are we greeting them? How are we interacting with them? How are we partnering with families. And so it's not just about one thing, it's about paying attention to the whole child, and the whole family. And it's not just something that we can do independently, but we have to be in partnership with several stakeholders. So going into the classrooms, making sure that we have the curriculum that we need, so that teachers can teach the way in which they need to teach, but also making sure that we're providing the training and the professional development for staff as well. That's the most important piece. I think about when I was a classroom teacher and I did balanced literacy. Right. And so I really thought I was doing it, I was innovative, I was creative. [Right] But did I teach my kids how to read? The, a really big thing for me was just the assessment that you take for the LETRS training revealed a lot of what I still need to learn [wow, okay] how it's all about reading [all of us], right? And so even going into that, thinking that I knew a lot of things, I had to adjust some of my thinking as well. And that's what a lot of teachers are going through right now. They're adjusting their thinking, they're adjusting their practices. And one of the things is that we're there to support them in doing that. So with the instructional coaches that we've put in place, we also have coaching that we get from the curriculum that we have decided to adopt. And again, just the mindset of helping people to understand why this is the direction that we need to move in, in order to move not just the test scores, but our students’ ability to read. Because we know that ensuring that students can read is going to open up the whole future for them. 

 

06:46: Dr. Jenkins: Right. And that LETRS training[yes] and you mentioned about the curriculum adoption at – historic here – [yes] in MMSD. We haven't done this in over 15 years, made this serious investment in materials that's aligned with the Science of Reading. Tell me a little bit about that. [Absolutely] How’s that going? 

 

07:06: Ms. Stanford: And so that was quite the process as well, right? [laughter] [Right] Just finding a curriculum that did align with the Science of Reading. So we didn't want to just go out and get any curriculum. But we made sure that it was aligned with the Science of Reading, that it was also, it had diverse materials so that students can see themselves within the materials that they were reading. And it also has opportunities, again, for SEL, for that social-emotional learning is also part of that curriculum too. Because again, we are educating the whole child. So that process not only involved just folks from central office, but it was also teachers, it was the union, it was parents, it was community members. This is, I believe, one of the first times in which we have adopted a curriculum where we are already seen progress with students. And we have staff that are excited about having this, this tool, because we know that it's just, is what it is, is a tool that they're able to use to assist them with teaching students how to read. 

 

08:20: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, that's powerful. Now let's, let's keep it real here on Lead to Liberate. [Yes.] Ms. Stanford, you were the one who led our school back to in person learning during the pandemic. And you did it in a very safe way. Tell us about that. Because here we were at a pandemic, we were all virtual. People were nervous. We were learning different things, from who? The World Health Organization. [Yes] Schools were moving at different paces. And you were charged with specifically, [yes] bringing our little ones. Tell our listeners about that.

 

08:53: Ms. Stanford: Yes. So I won't take all the credit. I will say it was the team [okay, right] that, that did that. And it was a lot about listening and learning. Learning from the experts as far as like, what is this thing that's COVID? What are the safety precautions that we have to put into place. Also learning from other districts that might have already been doing things that we might have wanted to implement. So the highest priority was to ensure that we were bringing students and staff back safely. Because one thing that the pandemic did uncover for some folks, that a lot of us already knew existed, were the inequities within access that students had to various things. [Mmhmm] So we needed to be sure that not only during virtual learning that students have access, but when we were bringing students back, how were we helping our families to understand that we were creating safe environments for them to come back to. We also knew that although we had great structures and things in place for virtual, we wanted our kids back into the building, and that was the best place for them to be to get the instructional support that, that they needed. So again, working with the medical professionals, working with MTI, working with staff, working with families to bring them back into school, um, where we were able to provide those opportunities. 

 

10:18: Dr. Jenkins: So did we start off with the high school students? 

 

10:21: Ms. Stanford: No, we did not. We started off with the elementary students. 

 

10:23: Dr. Jenkins: Oh, the elementary students. [Yes, yes, yes] Yeah, well okay. What grades did you start off with? 

 

10:27: Ms. Stanford: We started off with our youngest scholars first. And we made sure that we did not just bring everybody out at one time or back at one time. We did a slow integration back into school so that we could see, again, what the needs were. And then making sure that students were safe when they came back and then we went from there. So, it was a, it was a strategy, an intentional strategy, to have it be a slow coming back based on grades. 

 

12:08: Dr. Jenkins: I just think about the fact that how you brought everyone back with your team, and how you're being very intentional. But let's get to it, because we’re on Lead to Liberate, and we want to talk about the disparities. [Yes.] The disparities, as I began to mention, where we are at proficiency in nation, state, but let's go straight to MMSD. [Yes] We have some serious disparities. How do you plan to address those with the team? Or the associate superintendents, the teachers, the same people that you mentioned in terms of those stakeholders? 

 

12:44: Ms. Stanford: Yeah, we are, we're addressing it by being bold, right? So I think that Goal number three is bold. We often hear people say that I wanted to come and work for MMSD because this is the one district that I've heard call out Black Excellence. We're acknowledging what we have not done for a certain set of scholars and what we need to do, the systems that we need to disrupt. Often, we find that folks are blaming family situations or blaming students. And we want to look at ourselves as a district, ourselves as individuals and staff members, and what are those things that we need to change in order to see a difference in the disparities that currently exist. I think one of the reasons why I wanted to come back to MMSD is that I found that some of those same disparities that exist today were there when I was in school. And that's unacceptable. So what we haven't done, what we need to do, to create a school system in which we can truly say that all of our students are receiving the best possible education that we can deliver. So we have to examine and not be afraid to uncover those things that are there, that we might have created as a, as a schooling system and to change it and to dismantle it and to rebuild. 

 

14:11: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, powerful. So now, I know that you're having meetings, in your literacy advisory. [Yes.] Right. Tell me about those meetings. Because in those meetings, I've been there and participated. You have staff, you have community people, and everyone's saying, “Hey, we could do this.” [Yes[ So what's the feel? What, why are you having those meetings? 

 

14:31: Ms. Stanford: The feel is excitement. Because we're not just saying, ‘hey, come in and just give us some information.’ But we're saying, ‘come sit at the table with us to make a difference.’ So again, it is like you said, they’re parents, they’re community members, there's principals, they’re central office folks, and we're all coming together to really take a deep dive into what has been happening in MMSD around literacy and what is it that we need to change. And we're doing it together, though, as a team, rather than getting together as separate entities and just saying, ‘This is what we need to do.’ 

 

15:07: Dr. Jenkins: Wow. And I tell you, the peers that those committees are really digging in, [yes!] they're pretty serious about what are some of the causations. [Mmhmm] And then coming up with some of the solutions. I think the other night was just amazing when he talked about intentionality [yes] around it, talked about the expectations, and just a belief that all of our scholars can learn. When you think back as a scholar yourself, [yes]. MMSD. What is it that you wish you would have had, that you're trying to make sure right now all students do have? 

 

15:42: Ms. Stanford: That's a great question. I had great teachers when I was in MMSD. But I wish I could have had situations in which I knew that whatever classroom I walked into, my teacher believed in my ability to succeed. And I didn't experience that, and all of my tenure in MMSD. And I want to ensure that, that students have that, and that they know that there are adults that are there to assist them along their educational journey, but also that believe in what they are able to do, and helps to spark different things and provide the access that they need to do that. 

 

16:37: Dr. Jenkins: Wow. Well, I'll tell you, I'm very excited about what I see happening right now with the associate superintendents. You're doing your instruction tours. [Yes.[ Environmental scanning. [Yes.[ Tell me how that's going post-pandemic – you're being very intentional about going into classrooms, right? Why are you there? And what are you getting from it? 

 

16:56: Ms. Stanford: We're there to learn, and to align, and to provide feedback. So we're learning from each other, we're learning from the schools, we’re they are to align as a team. Because one of the important things if we are going to be successful in the direction that we're going – in leading to liberate – is that there is a comprehensive system. And so that means 4K through 12th grade that we are speaking the same language. And one of the biggest things that I learned in doing the environmental scans, and the instructional tours, is how much you can learn within a three minute period of time. [Mmm. Okay, okay.] You don't have to [okay, okay], you don't have to be in a classroom for 30, 45 minutes to really have an understanding of what is going on, what you're seeing, what are the great things that you're seeing, because don't get me wrong, they're phenomenal things that are happening in our classrooms across the district. And also taking those things and then replicating those and other places as well. So what are the best practices that we're seeing? And how do we replicate those across the district? 

 

18:05: Dr. Jenkins: What, is there a professional development for yourselves, in terms of as associates you having this intellectual agility going on? [Yes] Are you learning from your associates? 

 

18:13: Ms. Stanford: I am definitely learning, we are definitely pushing each other, we are questioning each other. There's just phenomenal transparency, and how honest we can be with what we're seeing. So that includes when the high school associate, and middle school associate, is going into elementary school, as well as the elementary associates who are going into high school. And I think that's a really important piece of being a team, is that we have to come together and have that trust and have that transparency, have the questioning of each other and also that critical push that's needed to make change. 

 

18:47: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, so the vertical and horizontal articulation is [yes] coming. Okay. [Yes] I'll tell you one other thing. We talked about it right here on Lead to Liberate. Our students now. When we’re talking about diversity. Diversity, there's diversity within diversity. [Yes.] And our students are truly identifying themselves today, as, as are some of our staff, and the community, the whole world is changing. How's that in terms of addressing socio-emotional, and also making sure that students are fit to learn without feeling it so they don't feel a part of MMSD? 

 

19:25: Ms. Stanford: And that's an important piece as well, when we talk about student identity. So I think I mentioned before, like, how are we welcoming [mmhmm] students into our classrooms? How are we helping them to feel as though they belong? 

 

19:40: Dr. Jenkins: Yeah, I think that's very interesting when you’re talking about wanting to make sure that all students are feeling like they belong in the classroom. What are those things, the conversations, that you're doing right now, or you all as a team, to make sure that all students mean all students? 

 

19:56: Ms. Stanford: So there's intentionality around what, um, schools and classrooms are doing to ensure that all students are, are and do feel welcome in the school, in the classroom, that we're recognizing. That goes from what we're putting on the walls so that we're making sure that students see themselves in the building, that they see themselves in the classroom. And it's not just a matter of accepting, but it's a matter of respecting how students show up and what they bring. Differences are assets. And we need to learn from each other, and students are learning from each other in that way. 

 

21:06: Dr. Jenkins: Okay, right here on Lead to Liberate, we come right at it. Being a leader, talking it is one thing, doing it as another. Talk about how you're trying to educate your central office, you're building principals. Because leading – you have to lead [yes]  if you really want to liberate our students. How are you all doing that as associate superintendents and as a district?

 

21:31: Ms. Stanford: So as a district, we're working with C.I.S. And we're doing a lot of equity work. So we understand that the way in which we support our schools, it just can't be professional development at the school level. But as the folks who are supporting our schools, we have to have that professional development as well. So one of those ways, is we are bringing central office staff together to do equity work. We're also bringing principals together to have the opportunity to experience that same work. And then from there, we will go into the schools with that learning again, because we, we know that central office has to be just as prepared to support as the schools are. 

 

22:23: Dr. Jenkins: Well, that's awesome. I've been in a number of districts, and sometimes it just doesn't happen that way. So I really applaud the work you're doing there. We see that you're doing a lot of work, and that one goal that you mentioned, Goal Three, why Goal Three? There's a lot of conversation about it, why Goal Three? 

 

22:42: Ms. Stanford: Goal Three – African American students and youth will excel. We know that if we are able to do that, then everyone else will rise. We also know that we have not been able, based on our data, we have not seen that yet. Our African American students, are, have the lowest proficiency rate for our students in MMSD. And we have to do something different. We haven't been able to do that yet. And so again, the idea is that in being extremely transparent and pointing that out, that it's out there, we know that it's there. But the question is, what are we going to do about it? And that's what we're striving to do, is to make those changes within our schools, within our systems to ensure that our students are succeeding and that we are reaching that Goal Three. 

 

22:36: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, that's exciting. I tell you the truth there, Ms. Stanford. Just to know that our district, and that your peers and yourself, are just really interested in moving that needle for all children, but particularly, you want to be really intentional about that Goal Three. So we appreciate having you here on Lead to Liberate. And we thank all our listeners for joining in again. Look forward to next week.

 

24:06: Student Speaker: You're listening to Lead to Liberate, a podcast by the Madison Metropolitan School District, demonstrating how the more we know, the more we grow.

00:11 Student Speaker: From the Madison Metropolitan School District, this is Lead to Liberate, a podcast documenting stories of inspiration, growth, and empowerment across our schools.

00:28: Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins: Wow, I just love that music. Thank you again for joining us. I am Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins, here on Lead to Liberate. Today, here on Lead to Liberate, we have an opportunity to go behind the scenes to talk to the person who's really navigating a lot of the academic work. And I am so proud to introduce to you, our listeners, Mrs. Cindy Green. Hello, Mrs. Green. How are you today? 

00:57: Good afternoon, Dr. Jenkins, thank you so much for having me today. I am doing great. And I am excited to be here and share a little bit of my story with you. 

01:07: Yes, that's outstanding. And I tell you right now, I must lift to our listeners, Mrs. Green has behind the scenes, she's definitely pushing the science of reading with all of our staff. I'm talking about our teachers, our administrators, and within our community. She's really working together with Dr. Hicks, and others to get the work done. And we're gonna get into that in just a minute. But I want to make sure that I did lift, we have an individual who is going to be here pushing the science reading with our other staff, so that that work’s going to continue. Now, Mrs. Green, let's just get right into it. This is what we do on Lead to Liberate. We want to talk about those things that's been really important to you and your career, but really important to us at MMSD. And want to understand, why MMSD? Why do you really want to be here? You’re a very talented person. You could be in a lot of places.

01:58: Mrs. Green: That's a great question. I think in order to say why MMSD, I will just take you back a little bit to why I am even in education. Education was not my path. When I went to college, I had no idea what I was going to do and probably changed my major three or four times, and graduated with a degree in social work. I, at that point, went and worked at Cook County Jail in Chicago, Illinois, and was hired as a social worker. They needed a teacher because they were short staffed and asked if I would take on one of their programs for the 90 men that were in the Maximum Security Division. I went and worked with these men who at the time had a reading level of first or second grade, but had all been graduates of Chicago Public Schools. It was one of my first experiences in seeing the inequities and the inconsistencies across our country in education. And with that, I chose to go back and get my degree in education as well as learning and reading disabilities. That started my career.

03:14: Mrs. Green: I worked in Chicago Public Schools for 20 years and was offered an opportunity to come to Madison, Wisconsin. Coming to Madison, Wisconsin was a really exciting opportunity – 50 schools in the heart of a university, it really seemed like a great place to come work. The reason I stay in Madison, Wisconsin, not only because of my family, is because this work is not yet done. We have deep disparities in our educational outcomes amongst our students. And I believe that I must stay here to commit to the work needed, specifically the work around literacy. So that is why I'm in Madison, Wisconsin. 

04:02: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, powerful. And now that you’ve come to Madison, Wisconsin, you are the Associate Superintendent over our Curriculum & Instruction department. And you’re doing a lot of work with your other associate superintendents. Can you tell us about that? How are you all gelling right now? What's the main thing? 

04:18: Mrs. Green: I would say one of the main things first and foremost is coherence across our schools for K12. We believe that's critically important. So working across the other associate superintendents of schools, as well as across departments to try and be consistent. Um, I would say the second most important thing that we are doing is continuing to focus on our priority of literacy, specifically, early literacy and beyond through the science of reading. As a collective, we are constantly looking at data to see how we are doing in terms of the learning around the science of reading, around the implementation of the science of reading and what materials we need to utilize in order to teach all of our students how to read through the science of reading.

05:10: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, you’re focusing on early literacy and beyond, and just the whole thing here on Lead to Liberate, we want to talk about what are those things are going to help liberate our students. And so you're talking about this early literacy piece, there was a historical adoption of our curriculum here by the district in over the last 15 years. Talk a little bit about that, and that process, what was it like because everyone wasn't on the same page. In Madison, you’re always going to have heavy discussions when it comes to reading and reading materials.

05:40: Mrs. Green: Yeah, I would say the conversation around reading is not a new one. There has been a debate across the country for a long time around, the what we call the reading wars – which is the right way to teach reading. Do we focus on whole language? Do we focus on balanced literacy? What we do know is that the science of reading does actually improve outcomes for our students. And so for us, this is not new. But what we thought was critically important when investigating new materials was to find the materials that best align to the science of reading, and also had representation of our student population. We knew that the materials we wanted to bring into our schools needed to uplift all of the students that we serve, and also ensure that it was teaching from the research related to the science of reading. That process, ah ah, involves community members, family members, school staff, and our central office staff. And that process was a tough one. We had to make decisions about which materials were going to be best for our classrooms that teach English only, and our classrooms that are our dual language immersion classrooms. In the end, we wound up choosing two different sets of materials that we believed were going to best serve both programs in our elementary schools. It was an amazing historic event. And it was a tough road to get there. 

07:17: Dr. Jenkins: Yeah, most definitely. I tell you, timing is everything. Coming, now we have these lingering challenges from the pandemic. And we wanted to make sure that we got the most out of this moment. So as a district, we're looking at how are we going to afford this? So were you able to use some of the ESSER dollars to help support this adoption of this new textbook materials? 

07:40: Mrs. Green: Yes, one of the great things about the one-time funds we received, is that those funds were really to focus on academic acceleration. And what better way to focus on academic acceleration than to buy a sustainable set of materials for literacy in our K5 buildings. So we took advantage of those one-time funds. We also are taking advantage of those one time funds to do the same thing at our middle schools. So our middle schools serve grades six through eight. And we have not had a consistent or coherent approach to reading materials in our middle schools since I have been here. So we are going to use those one-time funds once again to purchase some new materials aligned to the science of reading for our middle schools. 

08:26: Dr. Jenkins: Wow. That's exciting. And I tell you, though, Mrs. Green, we have so many people talking to me about, what about post-graduating? And we tried to make sure that all students are not only just graduating, but they are competent when they graduate – that they can read, and have all these other skills. And there's a large conversation around the articulated skilled trades, just different paths. We have students participating at Madison College, doing exceptionally well, particularly with our students, historically marginalized communities participate in that program. What are your plans for students beyond just for 4K-8? What are we going to do at the high school level? 

09:06: Mrs. Green: That's a great question. And this is one of my areas of passion. And what I would say is a game changer here in Madison. We have started to focus on having our students understand that there's multiple paths post high school – we talked about six paths. Not just college, two year or four year. Going right into a career. Going into apprenticeship. Going into a gap year. All of the different options for our students. And what we are trying to do in our high schools is make sure students have those opportunities before they graduate. What we think is critically important is we want our students to gain as much of what they need post high school while in high school. For example, can they earn college credit while in high school. That then is a game changer for some families free of charge, getting college credit. Can they get an industry certification, whether it's a CNA or a welding certificate? How can we provide those types of certifications for our students before they leave us, that can launch them into a successful post high school life, where they are going into something that leads to a life sustaining wage. So that is the work that we are working on. We have great partnerships with our universities here, as well as Madison College, as well as the City of Madison, and a lot of the business and industry that have been creating those opportunities – internships for our students over the summer that are paid. All of the things that we know students need in terms of experience and knowledge and skills so that they can be successful after they graduate MMSD. 

10:43: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, that's great! Here on Lead to Liberate, we go right at it. Okay. So you mentioned earlier about the disparities. [Mmm] And we think about education, we think about the Es, right? Education, economy and employment. And if you have those right, then it improves the equity and the excellence in any community. Talk about that just a little bit. Those things that you just mentioned, with an equity lens, how will that influence students who have historically been marginalized in many ways there?

11:13: Mrs. Green: that is such a good question. First, I have to say that it is not MMSD alone that can do that. And I think that's where our partnerships with the City of Madison, with our workforce development, with our colleges is so critically important. One of the things that I think is most important to disrupt those inequities is to ensure that we are diversifying our workforce, and leading students to life sustaining wages. That means giving them opportunities, where they can see what it looks like after high school, that can then be a game changer for them and their family to potentially get out of poverty. How we're doing that is ensuring that we are uplifting and privileging students that come from historically excluded backgrounds and/or from a low income background to be the ones that are afforded these opportunities first. Now, that doesn't mean that these opportunities aren't also available for other students. But what we know is historically, those students have been sometimes locked out of those opportunities, and we need to make sure that in order for them to change their life outcome, and sometimes their family life outcome, it's our responsibility to ensure that they not only have access, but they are given these opportunities. One additional thing I will say to that, which has been part of a strong partnership – and it is a work in progress, I will tell you that Dr. Jenkins – is that our business and industry continue to get on board to hire our students after they graduate high school. Not only to afford them these opportunities, but to help us diversify our workforce and keep them here in Madison. So we are not looking outside of Madison to hire for those jobs. 

13:06: Wow, that is exciting. And I'll tell you one thing that's happening right now only in MMSD. But given the disparities in the State of Wisconsin, we're having to push quite a bit in everyone. And I encourage all of our listeners to share this. In our public schools or in schools right now, I'm sorry, in the United States, we have a 35% proficiency rate. That means a whole lot of students are graduating, and they're not proficient. And MMSD with the science of reading wanted to be a leader in this space. And not only just doing the work, talking about the work, but we want to do the work. So how are you partnering with DPI and with the state knowing that this is a crisis we're talking about in the nation to be a leader?

13:51: Mrs. Green: Yeah, that is another great question. That is where we need to go. Many states across the nation have adopted the science of reading as their approach, right? They know that this is the game changer. We have started with a few organizations that are statewide to begin to not only share the work we're doing here in Madison, but how do we leverage partnerships knowing we cannot do this alone. In addition to that we've been really focused on, at the secondary level – so middle school and high school – and thinking about ways to ensure all of our staff have the strategies related to literacy in order to support our students. We know those transferable skills are what is most important for students, along with the credits needed to graduate. But we need students to leave with those transferable skills so that they will be successful no matter what they do. 

14:48: Dr. Jenkins: One of the things, I thank you for that answer, that we've been talking about a lot in MMSD, in order to really liberate our students, we have to see the whole scholar. So social-emotional, mental health is really big, and then the pandemic really illuminated the disparities we have. So what are you doing to address that? The whole idea, that we want to accelerate, we want to raise expectations, but we have to take care of the whole scholar and the family now.

15:16: Mrs. Green: Yeah, I'll share what we're doing. And I'll also share my perspective as a parent. I am a parent of MMSD, ah two MMSD students, also. We try to work across our departments to make sure that we're thinking about that through what we call an integrated approach. We know a student doesn't learn academics over here, and then learns about social-emotional learning over there, right? That's exactly what you said, the whole child. So how are we focusing on in attending to both. We know that we have to have very high expectations for all of our students. But we also have to do that with love and with relationships. When adults know students well, they're able to tend to both the academic needs and the social-emotional learning needs. As a parent, I see my own children sometimes struggling with the re-engagement with school after the pandemic, and see them having to really think about that balance of days when they can go hard and heavy with their learning, and other days when they really need to take a step back, and they need a break. And I think that that is what we are focused on here – is trying to find that balance, and also pay attention to when those social-emotional learning or mental health needs need to be at the forefront, and when academic may need to take a little bit of a break. 

16:42: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, thank you for that. I'll also tell you, I've been very impressed with our team, as you all have gone out and during instructional tours and environmental scanning, thinking about what has occurred during the pandemic. And just a correlation between what you just said, and what you all are doing. How are those tours helping you all, come back and kind of put it in perspective?

17:06: Mrs. Green: Great question. You can't make decisions about schools and what our schools need without being in our schools. You need to know what is happening on the ground day to day. Those instructional tours and environmental scans have given us an insight into the great work that's happening in our schools, but also being able to connect directly with our students; see what happens on a daily basis; see how individual teachers are taking advantage of meeting social-emotional needs; some of the tools and strategies they use, which is helping us think about how we share that information across schools. The best learning we hear often is when people learn from each other. So that has been very helpful. I think the environmental scans and instructional tours are also helping us make decisions about what we have to do across the system. There are some changes we need to do, there's some opportunities where we need to improve. And there's areas where we need to stay the course. Those instructional tours, environmental scans are really giving us a lot of great qualitative data to be able to make decisions here at Central Office. 

18:17: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, that's really important. And at the end of the day, monthly, once you do your instructional tours and your environmental scans, you're coming back talking about the impact, or the non-impact, and then making adjustments. And so when we talk about leading to liberate, this is when we get deeper into it. Having our instructional leaders out working with our staff, working with our administrators, talking to our scholars, I really do thank you for that as well. Now, one thing I have to bring up. This whole thing about the arts. [Yes] You invested in the arts doing last summer, at the tune of about $1.3 million. You work with the university. Tell us a little bit about that. And why the arts? Why the arts? 

19:04: Mrs. Green: Why not the arts? That's the first question. Yes, the arts because our students – back to what you said before in terms of the whole child – our students also need well rounded opportunities. And one way we believe well rounded opportunities are afforded to them is through the arts. So that's music, that's theater, that's dance, that's visual arts, ah, performing arts. Last summer, we knew we had to make improvements in the area of the arts. And so we created our first time ever Summer Arts Academy. We wanted to really uplift black and brown community artists. We wanted to ensure our students had access to different art forms that they may not have during the school year. To have that opportunity, but more importantly to explore their own interests that they could then further after summer. We're super excited to say we're doing it again this summer. [Okay.] We have new opportunities and we're creating more courses at our high school level so that students are able to earn credit, and also explore some of these art forms they may have never experienced before. 

20:11: Dr. Jenkins: Right. Is there an attendance requirement that you're looking at so that the students can go to summer school? 

20:16: Mrs. Green: No, Dr. Jenkins, there is no attendance requirement. We want to ensure every student that could benefit from these opportunities, they have the ability to. No barriers for our students. We're even trying to think through the transportation opportunities so that students can take advantage of this. 

20:25: Wow, I tell you, listeners, you heard it straight from Mrs. Cindy Green. She's leading the charge as Associate Superintendent for our Curriculum & Instruction department. And she definitely has a true justice lens. She's for all children, but paying particular attention to our Goal Three, making sure that our African American children and youth excel, but all children excel in MMSD. I'd like to thank you for listening. We look forward to having you again with us next week. Thank you so much. 

21:05: Mrs. Green: Thank you, Dr. Jenkins.

Student Speaker: You're listening to Lead to Liberate, a podcast by the Madison Metropolitan School District, demonstrating how the more we know the more we grow.
 

From the Madison Metropolitan School District, this is Lee to liberate a podcast documenting stories of inspiration, growth and empowerment across our schools.

Oh, I just love that music. Once again, this is Dr. Carlton D Jenkins is very proud Superintendent of Madison Metropolitan School District, and welcome back to lead to liberate. Today we have a very special guest with us today. Someone that's really about transforming the lives of our children. We have our very own district, athletic and co curricular director, Mr. Jeremy Schlitz. How are you doing today? Mr. Schlitz?

I'm great. Thanks for having me, Dr. Jenkins, I always look forward to chance to share the message about what we're doing in our co curricular in athletics here in Madison.

Yeah, so, so much appreciateed it. Just having you here today. Because actually, we have a unique situation in Madison, where as Mrs. Liz is not only the district, overseer of our CO curriculars in athletics, he's also based in a building right now. And we have about 27,000 students, and we have a number of co curricular activities and number of athletics that we do extremely well. Can you tell us a little bit about that managing that job and knowing what you really tried to get out of our students, student athletes, and also our staff?

Yeah, you know, I think I'm very fortunate, in some ways to have my foot in both sides of that, being a district athletic director and a school on, because in any way that you get an opportunity to be operationalizing, and be in contact with coaches and students gives you a really good opportunity to also see the big picture, and how we can make sure that's positively impacting our coaches who really are our teachers of our students in those co curricular activities. You know, sometimes it does feel like I'm juggling sand, which is a phrase I often use as I do some mentoring and teaching with our athletic directors across the state. But that's the athletic director role. You know, you're trying to make sure that you're supporting the students, the coaches in the communities to give those top notch experiences outside of that traditional eight to four school day. And it's really exciting work. It's not just the championships, it's the positive outcomes where we see kids that graduate or see kids connect, and want to be engaged with our schools. And just really also getting an opportunity to work with so many different leaders, whether that be other athletic administrators, or coaches, has been really a positive thing for me.

Okay, well, let's just jump right in it, he'll lead deliberate, we try to get to those things, those strategies that really can help all of our scholars become the best that they can be. And sometimes, we look at co curricular as an extra as an add on. And what has been your experience with the impact of students that you see persists through co curricular, be at the band, be it basketball, soccer, chess, whatever? What's been your experience?

Yeah, I mean, the extra is the added value to the student experience, obviously, but the co curricular is really what we see. And I think back to I was fortunate enough to be tasked to be part of a cross functional team seven or eight years ago here in the district to look at the impact specific to athletics when I was a new athletic administrator just at Memorial, and the outcomes that we're able to see related to both improved GPA, improved attendance, improved behavior events, along with just the leaders in our school, the ones that were, you know, doing not only leading in their specific sport or club, but leading the school, whether that's in student government, whether that is as a high academic honors type student, and then coming back, and we're very fortunate Madison, the number of alumni that have come back to help be part of CO curriculars, whether that's as coaches, as volunteers as people that are supporting our arts and our other co curricular activities and events, because it truly takes the whole community to make such a positive experience for our scholars.

Well, it sounds exactly like you're speaking from my dissertation, because it's what factors contributes to narrowing the achievement gap and looking at co curricular in a large school actually right here in the Midwest. And so when I hear you say, improves GPA, improves graduation rates, and things of this nature, we know they persist over time that will, what about our students who have been historically in some kind of way? marginalized? What do you see in terms of the barriers or the opportunities for our students?

Yeah, you know, I had an interesting journey through this. When I came in as a new athletic administrator, my focus was really on improving the experience and the visibility of our female athletes. My father was a girls basketball coach, and I grew up kind of seeing the differences there and my first coaching experience was as a head girls, golf coach. And just seeing the different ways that it's not only viewed by what was an underrepresented group when we look at that 25 years ago when I started, and then really evolving that into the equity work we can do by putting coaches and leaders of our underrepresented groups in power to be to see what they want to be. And I think that's really, we're ahead of the curve in Madison, because of what we've been able to do to diversify our coaching staff to diversify our leadership, and really to give the students something that they want to be part of, because they can see themselves not just in high school, but what they can do beyond high school. And I've also been fortunate enough to work at the state level, I was president of our state association of athletic directors, and able to move us in a direction where we now have a bipoc ad position created for recruiting and networking, athletic directors across the state. And we're very fortunate in our big conference, the conference were part of that DEIB or diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging is always an agenda item. Currently, I'm the president of the conference. And we make really intentionality around that work, being the work that starts the work we do in athletics. And I think we can definitely see that in our district paying off as we do that in all of our CO curriculars.

While you're to be commended for your leadership there with the organization, and recently my correct and saying that you just won this big state award, what was that award? Tell us a little bit about that, and how you're focused on equity, the way that you're doing it, kind of help bring it to fruition? Yeah, I have received the Distinguished Service Award for the state of Wisconsin this past year, for our NI AAA, which is our national organization. And I think a lot of that was an outcome of me being able to say yes to some things, I was able to be part of the fifth strategic plan for the NI AAA, which is our national ad organization, and really learning from across the country, you know, the work that we need to do, I was in the Programs Division. And as we work through the strategic plan, and then actually, this past two weeks ago, I was able to be to lead the Programs Division for the state of Wisconsin, in our next strategic plan. And I think, because I've been able to say yes to those opportunities to work with wonderful colleagues, specific to this work, I was able to present at our national conference on underrepresented groups in our profession and things we can do to support them with a colleague of mine out of San Diego. And then you know, those types of relationships and experiences I've been able to have, I've been able to bring back to our state to our school district, and to Madison Memorial and the roles that I play. It's been really, it's been really humbling to be honored by my colleagues with these awards, just because when somebody who you work with recognizes the extra that you do, is really, it's really meaningful. And that's something I've learned in terms of gratitude and wanting to just be grateful for our coaches, for our volunteer coaches, for our parents that maybe support our teams, and in ways people don't see. And gratitude is really what drives that. So I'm thankful. And I think because of that gratitude, I've been fortunate enough to be, you know, awarded those those recognitions from our organization.

Well, I just tell you the truth right here on lead to liberate, to even think about this is definitely Women's History Month. But to know that you came into the game heaven had some experience in knowing that women just do not are female scholars don't get the same opportunities. You've carried that and and you're doing a great job with that right now. But also just your whole equity lens, that you're not only pushing into district, you pushing into the state and tried to push it in the nation. And I must say, Wisconsin, we have some of the greatest disparities. And when it comes to academic achievement, we have the greatest disparities in the country. But it's very comforting to know, someone like you in a leadership role is keeping that at the forefront. And I love when you said that, we start with that. And we know that we try and expand opportunities to lead to liberate and other individuals, they see this and they can benefit from the administrative level from the coaching level, whatever level is all for the end results of our scholars having great outcomes. So thank you so much for explaining the award too, I think that's going to be big for our people in our community just even know that we have that type of focus in MMSD. But I'll ask you this as well. What are some of the great things when you've seen coaches really, truly trying to lead in a way, coach in a way that liberate our students to have them be more than just an individual who participated in co-curricular would be at the band, or sports? Do you have any examples of some coaches that you noticed? Just wow. Yeah.

You know, I think specific to some that I see, you know, at Memorial we've have, we're very fortunate 16 of our head coaches are also educators in our district, in the classroom. And I think having that be an advocate a contact point, somebody that see that's going through their data De and being always present for them has been the most impactful part seeing students that, you know, maybe came in, identified as part of our, our at risk group, as ninth graders develop and do college graduates that played in the NCAA Tournament, you know, things along those lines, which aren't always the team winning the championship, or the player of the year in the state, but somebody that maybe was identified early as, hey, this person may not, we wouldn't bet on them to graduate, finding a coach in the building that can say, I'm your advocate, I'm here for you, and just giving them that trust, that support. The benefit is immeasurable. You know, I think back to my days, I coached 37 Different Seasons, in this district, across in different sports before I became an athletic administrator. And some of my favorite memories weren't. Some of the state championships I was part of as a coach. They were, you know, the student coming back after they graduated from college, to wanting to come to practice, you know, things along those lines. And I see that every day, across our four high schools, is the number of coaches we have that are MMSD grads, is just outstanding. And what we're able to do to create environments where people want to come back and give back, I think is really the true testament of our coach's ability to impact forever.

Wow, that's outstanding, because as I go around the district, and I have some conversations with some of our coaches, and some not teachers, some community people doing very well, and they just want to give back because they tell me their experiences in our district where they had someone, an individual who really believed in them, and that propelled them to go on to do great things. Right now I know too, we have some professional athletes who have gone through Madison and they to reach back. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, you know,

Actually, I was able the first high school basketball game Wesley Matthews ever played. I was his coach at the JV level and, and Wesley this past year, spearheaded our play everyday campaign, which was to give back across the district with our foundation for Madison Public Schools, to get some equipment for recess and physical education activities, to give more and impactful access to all of our students, and the things that he does when he comes back. And it's not, it's not just Wesley but but obviously somebody who's going to be in the hunt for an NBA championship this year, you know, front of our mind. And, you know, the other ones that we've had that have had that opportunity goes back a long way. Mark Johnson from from Miracle on Ice, which we just celebrated an anniversary of recently, and is the co-chair for the UW women's hockey team. His whole family went through Memorial, I was fortunate enough to coach both of his daughters in tennis, and his son in golf, and just the impact Mark has still being part of that memorial community. And you know, the story is you and I could talk for hours, about different people that have come back to Madison to MMSD. And whose families want to be here because of the impact that had on their lives, to set them up for what they are able to do in the future.

Well, as I stand now, what message would you send to our parents? And to young people out there? I'm talking about when I'm having these conversations with 4k parents, they're talking about which high school and what experiences that children are going to have in middle school? What would you say to them in terms of getting engaged and staying engaged in schools and the benefits of just being a part of a team?

Yeah, you're talking to a 4k parent to that MSSD scholar right now. Oh, wow. So I can speak to my experience, I decided to join our parent teacher organization, because you just got to say yes, to be part of it. And that the opportunities we have in the access we have for our community members and our family, to be part of something at whatever level they're able to be at. And able to commit from a time standpoint, is phenomenal. And we have programs to reach out to all of our students and families. And you know, just say yes, and if you want to be part of an athletic department, or the theatre production, or any of our co-curricular activities at our schools, reach out to that athletic and activities director, reach out to that teacher, and we're gonna find a way to connect you. And I think it's really truly the village raising the child and in our district, and I'm, and the village that we have is such a wonderful one. But you've got to want to take that extra step and know that we want you to be part of it. I've been extremely fortunate as a parent, I have a second grader and a 4k student. And learning it from both sides and being able to see all the different ways. I'm truly blessed and chose to build a house in another city because where I want to be and where I want my family to grow.

Right? Well, I'll tell you what, what about a parent like my parents, my dad, third grade education, mom 10th grade education, and they had a number of children seven that they were raising, and they want their children to participate. But as we're trying to lead to liberate, how do we make sure we communicate. But that parent and say, Hey, this is for you as well. The fees get really heavy. If you have two children, scholars participating, what would you say to that type of pair?

Yeah, I think that's really why education based athletics. And all of our CO curriculars are the the inroad to being part of everything that we can kind of offer is because we do offer those those fee waivers, you know, financially is never a barrier for our participation. But it's us building partnerships and getting out into the community. For that preparation prior to getting to the education based athletics level where we need to, you know, I asked our coaches, you know, how do we get out to our boys and girls clubs? How do we get out to our community organizations? How do we meet people where they're at, to bring them into where we are at the schools, especially because you want to connect for successful, for instance, high school athletic program, they need to be aware and part of it as a fifth grader, or as a third grader. So how do we bring our community in to see those events and to let our students be the leaders, you know, I look back at the last month, I read your heart out, you know, times and watching our student athletes go into the schools and seeing the smiles and not only the students faces, but the athletes faces, you know, as they're able to share that and build that connection between, you know, our youngest scholars, and our soon to be graduates.

Wow, that's awesome. And I'll tell you this, I encourage you to get over to Mendola elementary school, they have the stompers, I had an opportunity to watch the videos of the stompers. And they have coach Wilson, who's in the fifth grade, that you probably want to start recruiting right now, to be an educator, and just be a part of this wonderful environment that we have here in MMSD. But the reason I say that, because mendota is about as diverse as you can get. And the spirit and the pride in that community resonates throughout our community. And I encourage you to get over there and pick up on some of those young stompers because I believe that they're going to do some big things and how they're being led over there to really believe just believe participating could make a difference.

Awesome. Yeah, absolutely. I've actually a family friend that whose students all went through Mendota, and they do a great thing as a school community, too. It's it's phenomenal to see and also check out my future coach,

Yeah, no doubt. And so I want to encourage us this is Women's History Month, to continue to not only reach out to our scholars to participate, but to continue to grow them as you have been doing in terms of our female leaders, and continue to work with us as we continue to have transformative conversations about how our students in Madison, so progressive in terms of how our students choose to identify, and how that's influencing our co curricular and athletic participation. So let's make sure that we stay at the forefront of that too. So all children know that we really mean all children when we talk in MMSD.

Absolutely. You know, if we're not innovating, we're not doing our job. There you go. Once again, you've heard here Lead to Liberate. We can't do it as an individual. We have to do it together. And we believe in the power in us. And MMSD thank you so much for listening and look forward to you joining us again next week. Have a great day.

You're listening to Lead to Liberate a podcast by the Madison Metropolitan School District demonstrating how the more we know the more we grow.

00:10: Student Speaker:
From the Madison Metropolitan School District, this is Lead to Liberate, a podcast documenting stories of inspiration, growth, and empowerment across our schools.

00:28 Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins:
Hello, everyone, again. This is Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins; this is Lead to Liberate. I am your host, the very proud superintendent here in Madison Metropolitan School District. We’re continuing to bring our staff in, to talk to them to find out why do they want to be a part of leading to liberate? We have an outstanding guest today, you will not believe it. I just can't wait until you hear all of her background. First of all, this is Dr. Angie Hicks. Dr. Angie Hicks, a tenant Madison Metropolitan School District, elementary, middle and high school. And now she's taken on several roles here in our school district, not only as a custodian, a teacher, a principal, and yes, now an Associate Superintendent for Middle Schools. We couldn't have had a more dynamic individual, more respected individual throughout our community to be a part of our team. And this is not a recruitment. This is a retention. Dr. Hicks, how are you today? 

01:24: Dr. Angie Hicks:
I'm doing well, Dr. Jenkins. Thank you for having me on, this morning. I'm really excited to, um, you know have this conversation and share with you about, you know, why I'm here in MMSD. Why I stayed in MMSD. What I, what visions align with yours in terms of MMSD, and how we can move forward collaboratively and collectively to ensure success for all of our scholars in MMSD. 

01:48:
Yeah, and definitely I would just love to have a conversation, you and I, but right now we're talking about you sharing this with the entire community. We want our students to know – yes, right here in MMSD, you started as a student. And can you tell us a little bit about how your career matriculated as a student and then now, professionally. 

02:07: Dr. Hicks:
So yeah, I'm on the mature side, now. I started in MMSD in 1971, in first, in first grade at Aldo Leopold elementary school. And I didn't go to kindergarten because I was in a Montessori, in a Montessori school. But, but starting in, in MMSD, going from first grade through fifth grade at Leopold, while the majority of my teachers in that environment were white. I had one African American teacher, Geraldine Bernard, we call her Mother Bernard, she actually attends my church. They saw me, they valued me, they supported me, [mmm] and they affirmed me. I think that at the time during, during that era, there were a lot of things going on – civil rights movement, women's lib, you know, hippies, all of the, all the different activist movements were going on. I think people were doing the right thing for everybody because it was the right thing to do. [Right.] 

I think over time, though, it changed. When I went to middle school, actually, I started off at St. James Catholic School [mmhmm] for sixth and seventh grade, and then went back to Lincoln Middle School during my eighth grade year. And in that space is where I started to feel a difference [mmm] in how teachers saw me or, or heard me, because I love school, and I could excel in school, but I just didn't feel like I was getting the opportunities. [mmhmm] In, in, in some places I was I was beginning to get pigeonholed into what I could be and what I should do. But thankful to my mother, Easter Carson, for pushing me and showing me like no, this is my baby and you're going to be who you need to be. 

Um, when I got in high school, I went to Madison West – let's go Regents, whoop, whoop, whoop! [Alright] [Laughter] It was very tracked, like, right, you were going on this path or that path and, and I really wasn't seen in high school, that high school was very large. I was just, you know, a little grain of sand in this whole beach [wow] on the, on the beach, and it wasn't as connected. They were teaching content and not understanding they were teaching a human being [mmm, okay] who needed more than just the information. And so, so, while I had my own adolescent growth journeys, during that, my high school process I was able to recover. Again when we talk about GPAs and all of that I, I started out strong in high school. You know, actually I started off I came in with a whole credit because, I started, went to summer school before even high school started because that's what you could do back then. And I had good grades. And but then, you know, adolescence came in and started smelling myself a little bit, and not not doing the things that I needed to do. But I had a strong enough foundation where I could recover. So when I talk to young people, I really tell them, your most important year of high school is your freshman year, [mmm] right? Because that lays the foundation. You can always, you can always recover if you have some hiccups or whatever along the way. But when you start off and don't do well, and behind the gate, it's really hard to recover. You still can – because there are programs and opportunities and ways to do that. But it, the hill to climb is much more steep. 

05:51: Dr. Hicks:
And so then actually, and I'm also when I graduated from high school in 1983. I um, I went and turned in my cap and gown, and to get my diploma. And my homeroom teacher, like shook his head, no. It wasn't there. And, um, you know, you know who I am Dr. Jenkins. So you could see flame coming out of my head like, wait, what? And they wanted to, they said that I didn't have it because I was short, a quarter of a credit or something of gym. I said what?! My mother was, you know, furious, of course, and we called my counselor, because I was leaving that same day to go to University of Iowa for summer school, and I said, Well, Mom, if I have to go back and force a gym credit to get my diploma, I guess I won't be getting it. [Mmm, okay.] So my counselor said that all I needed to do was, you know, send my credits back from summer school or my, my classes, my grades back, and then I would be able to get in. So I did do that. But in retrospect, I ran varsity track as a freshman and as a sophomore. I played varsity basketball my sophomore, junior, and senior. You're like, wait, gym? Like I'm, I'm, so I was concerned. But I was able to overcome that and go on, and go to college.

07:17 Dr. Jenkins:
Let's pause here for a moment, because you didn't just go to college, right? Ah, undergrad, where did you go again?

07:23: Dr. Hicks:
I went, so I went to the University of Iowa. I started there. But then I finished at UW-Madison. 

07:29: Dr. Jenkins:
Right. So I just want to make sure our viewers, hear this. She didn't just go to college. She went to big, two big colleges right off the bat, right. Coming from Madison Metropolitan School District. We're talking to Dr. Angie Hicks. Here she is now, someone who almost did not graduate, because of a quarter of a credit, was still a student at a high level able to go to Iowa able, to graduate from UW-Madison, and now have a Ph.D. And I want all the students to recognize this is someone who looks just like you. In fact, they used to tease her, and call her Charles Barkley on the playground. [Laughter] Okay, she's done all this stuff, athletically, but also academically. But here she goes, again. I just wanted to, just come in on this point, because I see your passion for children. Every day, all day, 365 days a year. So what drives you to want to lead to liberate to make sure that students have all of what they need so that they can become a Dr. Angie Hicks from MMSD?

08:36 Dr. Hicks:
So, I would just say, as we're growing up, and we're young people, we don't really understand what it is that we need. [Mmmhmm] And as I've matured into who I am today, I realize that… I understand that now. And so I try to ensure that I can do whatever I can to make sure that the young people who are here, are able to access that. Because we don't know what we don't know, because we don't know it. But once we learn and know, we have to do better. And so I'm here to make sure that our young people have access to opportunities, [mmm] information, so that they can navigate this thing called life. Because life is hard. Everything that feels, feels good to us isn't good for us. But what, we want it in the moment. And so I think that, and plus, you know, I, Dr. Jenkins, I come from a place of faith. [Mmm] And so all of this is bigger than me, and I listen to that spirit to help to guide me into what it is that I should do. Because, you know if the Angie Carson in me shows up, [mmm] it's not going to come out too well. So I have to make sure that I am really being intentional about you know, making sure that the young people who aren't even thought of yet [mmm] so generations and generations to come have an opportunity and access. And it's like, you know that Dr. Martin Luther King said, you know, I may not get to the promised land with you, but I've been to the mountaintop, right? I may not go with you, I may not get there with you. But, um, but I'm gonna help you to get there. And so that's the why. [Yeah] I think that, you know, how our communities go, how our youth go, is how our country is gonna go. And I think that, while you know, economics drives things, I think that everyone needs to have the opportunity. And I don't, I just don't think that you know, and I'm talking as a black female. Now, as a black girl, we didn't always have the opportunities, [mmm] and we, and we still don't have the opportunities. And so someone has to, you know, lead the charge of knocking down the doors and in climbing the walls and going over, going over the ledges so that we can ensure that our young people have opportunity, access, and are successful. And success for me means being able to take care of yourself and your family independent of somebody else [right] doing that for you. But the level of success you attain is limitless. [Right] But I just want to make sure of that, out the gate, foundationally for everybody

11:06: Dr. Jenkins:
Right. And let me just say this, I see your passion. Like we're talking about the Science of Reading, and the LETRS professional development at the elementary level. And now you're in charge and looking at the new textbook selection for the middle schools. And you bring that same level of passion. I mentioned your nickname on the court, that's, that was actually given by the guys who were there because you can compete against anyone – from an academic level, athletic level. And I've just observed you, you go into all spaces, and you’re from MMSD. Also, we're hearing about your elementary and middle school experience. What from that, do you bring into the job today, knowing that you didn't have as many people who look like you? Did, you did have Momma Bernard with you, as well, but what propelled you to say, hey, I can do this too, in MMSD. 

12:00 Dr. Hicks:
So I've, you know, I grew up in Madison, and I had a village. So everybody was responsible for everybody, took care of…anybody's parents could communicate to you, redirect you or whatever. So that's, that's what I come from. And, and knowing that, I also know that now, people live next to each other and don't even know their neighbors, which is sad. And our biggest, the big, most important, One of the most important things that we have, and that we need, is communication. And we don't do that. And the connectedness that's gone. And so I'm really, really trying to make sure that we continue to just like, connect. That, that, as an adult now, I, I didn't know what I didn't have then. I didn't know what I needed then. Right? I just wanted what I wanted in the moment. You talk a lot, too, about the long view. Right? [Mmhmm] And it is about the long view, not just in the moment. Because the moment is gonna… it's only that – a moment. [Mmhmm] We know that the future is coming. [Right] So how are we preparing for that? How are we being ready for that? And in order to do that, I have to… I'm a connected person, I want to connect to people, I want them to know that – that they have a village wherever I come and whoever I am, adult, child, you know, peer, whomever, that we have a village. We can't, we can't operate in isolation because if we do then guess what? We’re on our own track, and we're doing what we want to do, and not for the good of the, of the people. [Wow] Not for the good of the community. 

13:48: Dr. Hicks:
My mother came to Madison, Wisconsin from Birmingham, Alabama, at Phenix City, Alabama, but Birmingham… 

13:54: Dr. Jenkins:
Birmingham, my people are in Birmingham as well. Yeah.

13:56: Dr. Hicks:
But Birmingham. And um, you know, I asked her often. Um, well, mom … she was, she was, she was raised at a time, you know, when the civil rights era. And she said, the, one of the worst things that happened to us is desegregation. [Mmm] Not, not segregation, desegregation, because now we're, we're … with everybody in her community. They were doctors, nurses, teachers look like her. Right? They were a part of the community. They were from the community, if I can't give back and help my community, right? Where I come from, who poured into me, how am I going to be able to do that somewhere else? Again, to whom much is given, much is required. My community poured into me, I have to pour into my community. It's a non-negotiable. It's a non-negotiable. 

15:12: Dr. Jenkins:
Wow, let's go right into that point. Because we are on Lead to Liberate. We go deep in, sometimes. I'm telling you now, for our viewers out there, our listeners, I want you to hear this. She described herself as an African American female. Your identity matters. She described her upbringing in a community that looked a lot like her. Understand what she's talking about desegregation. It wasn't that individuals weren't for integration. And an attorney once asked me that, see you so you're not for integration? I said, No, that's not what I said. I'm not for integration, the way that it has happened to us. Now, if you want to start there, we can build it back up, and we can get into the Green Six conditions, Green vs. Kent County, and talk about making sure that we have equitable resources to the benefit of all of ours, here in Madison Metropolitan School District, here in the State of Wisconsin. We just, on the national exam, okay, the national exam, we just came in first place, again, for the largest disparities. You understand? On the NAPE exam. So fourth grade math, the next closest state to us, 18 percentage points. So what Dr. Hicks is saying here is real. This is what we experienced with our students. We talked about the disparities, but we're here to do something about it. She's here to lead to liberate. And she's giving you insight into who she really is, what drives her, her why. So for the rest of the conversation, I hope that you're staying tuned with us, and you're trying to understand it on a deeper level where she's coming from. Because we talk about our students. Well, our students do grow up, and she could be anywhere in the world. And she chose to stay in Madison. Why Madison?

17:02 Dr. Hicks.
Um, Dr. Jenkins, as I stated before, this is this, is home, right? You can have a house anywhere, right? So I could go anywhere, and then create a home. I feel like, while it has been challenging, in spaces and places, I think that Madison has done well for me and my family, in terms of showing up in spaces sometimes that I didn't expect it to, right. Um, I've, as an adult, I've always been on in activism or in space is trying to do trying to do, give back. My soul and my spirit is servanthood, right? And the community in which I live, where my family is, my mother's side of the family is smaller, my dad's side of the family is larger, and they're out out out east in New York. But I needed that connection, right? And I needed to be able to, um, to pour into how my elders poured into me. And if we all leave and run away from where we're from, we can, we can contribute in other places,  but I just felt the need, and I was called to stay here. It wasn't my choice. I could have stayed in Texas where I had moved to live, I could have went to Virginia or Alabama. But I chose to stay here, because there was a lot that needs to be done, and like to give back to, not to just my intimate community, but the larger community. [Mmm] And again, I'm here to serve. And when you're here to serve, it's about being selfless, sacrificial, and that being right, but being righteous for righteousness sake. And so that's the why. And I wanted young people to be able to see somebody who, who they truly knew regardless what color they were… actually, Madison being as the, as segregated as it is, that it doesn't matter what you look like. How you care and how you show up for others that matter. Because while we have that dash – you know our birth date, and our, the date we expire. That dash is, is the thing that matters. How do I make people feel? How did I show up for other people? Those are the things, and if I can't do it at home, then where? 

19:39: Dr. Jenkins:
Wow, I tell you, we've been today engaged in a conversation with Dr. Angie Hicks, as her mother would say Angie Carlson, as her husband says Angie Hicks. [Laughter] So it has been a great pleasure today to engage with you and one thing that I would like to say as well. And she really touches all children, I think throughout our community. You see students of all races, families of all races, they all look up to, and have been inspired by Dr. Angie Hicks. Thank you.

20:30
You're listening to Lead to Liberate, a podcast by the Madison Metropolitan School District demonstrating how the more we know, the more we grow.
 

00:10 Student Speaker: From the Madison Metropolitan School District, this is Lead to Liberate, a podcast documenting stories of inspiration, growth, and empowerment across our schools.

00:28 Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins:  Hello, and welcome to Lead to Liberate. I'm your podcast host, Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins. I'm the very proud Superintendent of the Madison Metropolitan School District, one of the very finest school districts in the country. And here, what we do, we talk to our employees about what's going on, how are they leading to liberate. We talk to our community people about leading to liberate. And today, we have two very special guests from our Office of School Safety. Everyone's been talking about it around the country – what's going on in the schools during the pandemic. And now that we're emerging out of the pandemic, what's happening. Our district was one of those districts that made a decision to remove our police officers out of the schools. And we had to come up with a plan of how we were going to connect. But we have here our very own. We have Gina and Sedric. So our special guests, Gina and Sedric, how would you tell us that you're doing right now, coming out of a pandemic, knowing all the things been going on in the schools – talk to us about that? What's, what does it feel like now?

01:40 Sedric Morris: Right now, coming out of the pandemic, I would say that it was tough. It was tough for everybody. But I think schools are getting focused now. Right? Systems are starting to come together. Students are starting to settle down. And things are working.

02:03 Dr. Jenkins: Okay, great, great. Well tell me this, because a lot of the talk has been coming out of the pandemic. And you know, we were in social isolation, and then thinking about students how they are trying to manage having been in isolation. And now back in schools, and I heard you saying, yes, systems are coming together. How are you addressing the social-emotional and the mental health? Talk to us, Gina.

02:24 Gina Aguglia: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's something that's so important to be thinking about, we are really intentional about lifting both safety and security in our Office as well as social-emotional and psychological safety. We think that both are very much connected, and both must be balanced and, and, worked on regularly. So the things that we make sure we do is when we're coming into schools and working with schools, that we're really thinking about those safety aspects of relationship building, having-making sure students are feeling welcome, making sure that their social-emotional needs are met. And like Sedric said, we really are, really coming back from this pandemic, and really starting to see systems falling into place. But we know that our kids have a lot of anxiety, we know that there's a lot of, you know, continued concern around, you know, just coming back from this kind of unbelievable experience that we've all, you know, shared with, with going virtual and learning how to pivot from being in person to virtual and now back to in person. It takes a lot of toll on a person, and especially on our children with, you know, that are constantly developing, we know that they are not fully developed brains until they're, you know, 25-26 years old. So we've got a really interesting opportunity here to really support our students who are continuing to develop, and shift, and change, and are faced with additional adversity, how we can utilize safety as a foundation for, to support them.

03:51 Dr. Jenkins: Yeah, wow, this is really a big decision to go to a Office, really, of school safety. When we, we've been very used to having our school resource officers. But during the pandemic, there were different things that started coming up, and having some student conflict and which actually, you had to go to do some home visits. Talk to us a little bit about that Sedric. What, what actually happens doing that? 

04:14 Mr. Morris:  Yeah, so our home visits we started last year, where we go into students’ home. Students, maybe, in having, you know, some issues at school, we go into to offer other supports, right. Whether it's mentoring, education, tutoring, anything that we can do to help the family, right? So just being able to wrap around, not just inside of the building, but also outside of the building, showing that we care in that way. And if any way that we can help, um, help a student, help a family, get back on track. It's what we call the restorative recovery plan. So that's what we want to continue to do.

04:57 Dr. Jenkins: Well, that's powerful. And I think the fact that you all are doing that restorative recovery. During the pandemic, we talked a lot about that, that some of the students, you have to deal with the whole student, the whole family, and the community. And in that, sometimes, we didn't have the intelligence that we'd normally have been pretty comfortable with. When we were in regular schools, when we had the resource officers in there about what was going on. How did you kind of reestablish that relationship? Do you even have a relationship now with our police officers in our community? And if so, how's that working now?

05:32 Ms. Aguglia: That's a really good question. I think that it was a really tough decision to determine that we were going to be removing police officers. But we heard from our staff, our students, our families, that we were really needing to try to do things differently. And, and so what we've really tried to push is our office around being an Office of School Safety, but really focused on doing things, ah, differently as it relates to safety. And, you know, Sedric mentioned our restorative recovery plans and working with, with families. Sedric and I both come from backgrounds that are much more involved – I'm a, I'm a social worker by background, Sedric is background in corrections and also in Dane County, working on a ton of, I mean, just amazing youth advocacy, empowerment, supporting youth and getting youth connected to resources in the community, you know, through his job in Dane County. So the two of us coming together and really utilizing those, that background as a platform for school safety is a shift. And then with the removal of SROs and really trying to figure out what we are, you know, going to make sure that we continue to maintain, as far as safety and security goes, we've actually developed some really good relationships with the Madison Police Department. It almost is as if without the SROs, we have been even moreabout making those connections. We, we are regularly meeting with the captains across our, the districts that have our, our high schools. We are checking in with our mental health officers. We are learning more about our opioid diversion program within the police department. There's a lot of different things that we are now collaborating with. Whereas where it was, you know, with the SROs in our buildings, were kind of, you know, just an extension of the police department. But now we do really feel like it's, it's transformed into a, more of a collaboration where we're really working together.

07:29 Dr. Jenkins: Wow, this is really interesting. And I know too, as well, I've heard the students. You have three employees, right now in the Office of School Safety? 

07:49 Ms. Aguglia: Absolutely, yeah. So Dr. Jenkins is referring to our third Director that we haven't named, who is Bonnie. Bonnie is a certified therapy dog. She is a WAGs dog, which is a organization here in Wisconsin that trains service dogs. But as we've been talking about the pandemic a little bit, Bonnie aged into service dog abilities during the pandemic, and the agency decided not to place her. So she was this very well trained dog that they really wanted to have a good second career for. So I got contacted. My background, like I said, is in social work, but I actually have a certification in animal assisted therapy. And I was really excited to, to adopt Bonnie as my own dog. And now Sedric and I bring her around when we are doing restorative recovery, when we're working with schools, and especially when working with staff. Staff are really, you know, you know, going through a lot all the time and we love to debrief, we love to process, but we also love to bring Barney just for some snuggles.

08:50 Dr. Jenkins:  I tell you, I like going out to the schools, and particularly when we're doing a restorative recovery, but to see Bonnie at work, and all of our children and the staff coming by. Everybody wants to talk to Bonnie. Well, when we look into the future, though, because as you said, we're coming back. We're getting systems in place. How well are you working with the principals? And, we had a number of police calls early on during the pandemic. What does it look like now with those calls, because people are still needing assistance. So what are they doing?

09:32 Mr. Morris: People are still calling us, still calling the, our crisis line. We still consult with principals every day. Calls really, definitely dropped from last year. And we are continuing to work with the principals around incidents in the schools and how to debrief situations, right? Not every, not every incident needs a police call, right? So walking through how to…what's the next steps, what's the best situation as opposed to calling the police. So being able to work with those principals and build those relationships, definitely has helped in the long run. 

10:23 Ms. Aguglia: And I would say that while police calls from schools have gotten down, we have gotten an increase in school principals connecting with our Office. And so we really are trying hard to make sure that, that principals feel that they have a resource in us – to consult, to collaborate, and to determine next steps. And so, you know, we're never saying, you know, ‘don't call the police,’ we're saying, hey, if it's not an imminent emergency, and you have time to pause, and to create an opportunity for a consultation, we know that when you utilize a multidisciplinary approach, then you are much more likely to have positive outcomes. So if principals can stop, can consult with us, and we can talk through next steps, that always ends up having better outcomes. Regardless of whether or not, you know, police are involved, the more that we can stop and work with our schools directly ends up being a lot more helpful for everyone, including if we involve law enforcement in the future.

11:19 Dr. Jenkins: Wow, I'll just tell you, just seeing you there last year, going through this, and we're all learning during the pandemic somewhat together, and you were practicing it. And you were doing the calls. And now I'm hearing the principals talk about the relationships that they feel like are so strong with you all. And you connecting with the families, with the parents now – how's that going for you personally, with the parents, now?

11:41 Mr. Morris: Parents have, have actually been really good, and really responsive of what we're trying to do, what we want to do in the future, what we'll continue to do. We, you know, have, have, again, back to the home visits. When we ask parents what it is that they need, they're more open, you know, and trustworthy of us building relationships with them. So they are more open to telling us what it is that they need, so to speak, [mmhmm] if that makes sense. So in the long run, instead of you know, when something happens in schools, they’ll be more inclined to reach out, and actually have more of a positive impact and positive conversation.

12:26 Dr. Jenkins: Yeah, have you, have you experienced, at this point – parents…because it's sometimes difficult to share? If you need the service, like mental health? Have parents opened up to you and said, ‘Hey, I think our family could use some of this?’

12:42 Mr. Morris: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I can think of a home visit where we went to, last year, where it was…it wasn't easy, it wasn't an easy situation. The whole situation was, was kind of difficult. But in that moment, a parent didn’t share that, you know, they would love to have some, some extra services, mental health services, but just didn't know how to go about doing it. And Gina was there right there on the spot [mmhmm] to help guide that.

13:13 Ms. Aguglia: Yeah. And I think that just again, back to our backgrounds, we are really connected to resources around the community. [Mmhmm.] But then, you know, we're also really connected to our resources here in MMSD. We know we have psychs, social workers, counselors, nurses, PBIS, coaches, all these, you know, professionals that are in our schools that are really wanting to make those connections with our families. And sometimes our families just don't know where to go, or who to reach out to. So getting our families connected to those community resources, getting them connected to our school resources, and really trying to all work together in and utilizing that as part of the recovery when instances happen, I think is really important.

13:52 Dr. Jenkins: Wow, this is really amazing. You know, our core goals talks about belonging and talks about voice. So have you had an opportunity yet to get the voices of our students? Have you sat back and talked to them about ways that your Office could probably benefit our schools even more? And benefit the students?

14:14 Mr. Morris: Yeah, every time that we’re in schools, right, we're in the schools a lot. We get asked about being- speaking-in different school groups, school based groups. You know, what's next for our office? We've had students come up with great ideas to, to even help. What does our future look like? So being able to just be in the schools, and just stop, and listen, and look, and get, get a sense of what it is that they want, so that we can bring it back, and kind of add it into the work that we do. I think that's important.

14:53 Ms. Aguglia: Well, and we can’t leave a high school without Sedric at least connecting with three or four different students [laughter] who know him through the community,  through all of his work in our schools, or family, or sports, you know, coaching. So that's such an impact too, is that the kids are like, ‘Oh, I know that guy. And that guy's awesome.’ And so then it's extra cool to be able to say, ‘hey, and we want to talk to you about safety and stuff like that.’

15:17 Dr. Jenkins: Wow, that's awesome. Sedrick, you are a part of the community. Did you actually go to school here many kids, so many people know you

15:27 Mr. Morris: Yeah, I, um, I am definitely a product of MMSD. Proud, Mudville Elementary, Lincoln, Cherokee Middle School, proud graduate of West High School. graduate from MMSD, as well. So I've been in and out of this community for years. I'm still in the community: coaching, refereeing, mentoring, fraternity, all of that. [Wow.] So I do a lot of work in the community. Yes.

16:02 Dr. Jenkins: So did you go to higher ed, take your classes here? [Yeah.] An where, where did you go to school?

16:07 Mr. Morris: Yeah, I actually went to Upper Iowa to get my undergrad degree and then University of Cincinnati to get 

16:16 Dr. Jenkins: Right. That's great. But, what about you, Gina? You're like, you're educated here in the area for your higher ed?

16:24 Ms. Aguglia: Yeah, I got my undergraduate degree here at UW and [Go Badgers!] Yeah, go Badgers! I actually played soccer for the University of Wisconsin.

16:36 Dr. Jenkins: Wait a minute. You played on the soccer team? 

16:37: Ms. Aguglia: I did. I did. 

16:38 Dr. Jenkins: Wow. Okay. That's why you’re always challenging me about ‘let's play some soccer here.’ [That’s right] Right? Yeah. Okay. I thought I could beat her. 

16:48 Ms. Aguglia: It’s going to happen, we’re going to go head-to-head at some point. [Okay, great.] But yeah, I got my undergrad here, had a really good experience here. And I actually went and got my master's degree out in Colorado. And Colorado was a pretty amazing place. And I still love Madison so much that I came back. I really, really love it here. I value being here. And I really enjoy being part of the school district.

17:10 Dr. Jenkins: Wow, well, I'll tell you, you two have definitely been the individuals that we know, can and will continue to help us lead to liberate, and we just want you to continue to push in, about how we can continue to connect with our not only students, but as you've been doing with the families as well, connecting with all of our resources in the community. Because we know that if we do that – establish those relationships – things are going to be better. Things are already getting better. And we're just so excited to have everyone back in person this year. But I also want to thank our listeners again, for listening in to Lead to Liberate, right here. We tried to peel it back, and see what’s really going on in MMSD. Thank you so much for your time. Lead to liberate.

18:00 Student Speaker: You’re listening to Lead to Liberate, a podcast by the Madison Metropolitan School District, demonstrating how the more we know the more we grow.

00:10 Student Speaker: From the Madison Metropolitan School District this is Lead to Liberate, a podcast documenting stories of inspiration, growth, and empowerment across our schools.

00:27 Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins: Hello everyone, and welcome back to Lead to Liberate. I am Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins, I am your podcast host. I am the superintendent, the very proud superintendent, of one of the best school districts in the country, Madison Metropolitan School District. Today, we have with us, a very exciting guest. As you know, we like to try to peel it back. Tell it like it is – and have everyone really understand what is it to lead to liberate? Our guest today is very special. Our guests was actually the 22-23 Principal of the Year in the State of Wisconsin; competed for Principal of the Year nationally. She's exciting. We have with us, Dr. Ebbe. Anu. Dr Anu. How are you?

01:10 Dr. Ebbe: I'm great, thank you. And thank you for having me here today, Dr. Jenkins.

01:14 Dr. Jenkins: Yeah, it's great to have you. And we often refer to her as Dr. Anu because some people don't say Dr. Ebbe, but so tell us about that, too. You know, Anu Ebbe, where does this come from? [laughter]

01:27 Dr. Ebbe: Well, my birth name is Anuradha Rangaswamy. I was born in India. And I came to the United States. When I got married, I changed my name to Ebbe. But a lot of the students in MMSD still know me as Ms. Rangaswamy.

01:45 Dr. Jenkins: Oh, wow, that's, that's exciting. Just the name itself. She's quite the story beyond her name. Can you tell us how, you kind of like, got into education? What inspired you to want to be a difference maker?

01:58 Dr. Ebbe: Absolutely. So that goes back – way back – to when I was living in India. And, um, when I was about 11 years old, we were living in a city called Hyderabad. And none of the girls in my neighborhood were biking. And I was the first one to insist that I learned how to bike. [Mmm.] And the entire community was very angry that that was happening, [wow] and came and protested in front of our house. My mom stood up for me. And that moment, my mom and dad said, ‘we need to send her to the United States.’ So like, you know, even back then I was constantly fighting for equality, for social justice for myself, and also for everyone around me. And then when I came to the United States, I came to live with my sister and her wonderful family in a suburb, in the suburb of St. Louis. And, um, during that time, it was right in the middle of the desegregation program. And it was 1984, and my 10th grade year. And I'll give you a moment, a minute to do the math. [Laugher] [Dr. Jenkins: Right, right, right.] And so then, during that year, one of my teachers asked me to stand up in front of the class. And the class took votes on whether I looked more black or white. [Mmm.] And…

03:32 Dr. Jenkins: Wait a minute, wait a minute. You’re saying, the class [mmhmm] in 1984? Took a vote on whether or not you look more white or black? [Dr. Ebbe: Yeah.] Not understanding who and what you really were at the time. Wow. [Dr. Ebbe: Yeah.] Talk to us about it.

03:52 Dr. Ebbe: Yeah, so this was right in the middle of the desegregation program, right? In St. Louis, where students from East St. Louis, or mostly black and some brown students, were being bused into suburbs. So our school community was changing. And I don't think the teachers knew what to do, how to interact with our students, how to teach. And this, these were the kind of the approaches that they were taking, which was really, I think, for everybody, just shook us to the core – shook me to the core. For sure. Seeing that, I was seen in that light, it impacted my identity in a way that was not good. I tried to start assimilating rather than being me.

04:45 Dr. Jenkins: You mean that one activity where the students were voting on you, began to shake you? Had a serious social-emotional, psychological, mental kind of effect on you?

04:55 Dr. Ebbe: Absolutely. In a way that impacted me for many, many years [mm], till even I became a teacher at Memorial High School.

05:09 Dr. Jenkins: At Memorial High School, right here in Madison. Okay. [Here in Madison]. Tell us about it, now - lead to liberate.

05:15 Dr. Ebbe: That was 1998, right. And I was hired to teach in this alternative program called ‘School Within a School.’ It was just like, I felt like I had landed my dream job. I wanted to work at, you know, with students of color, and that's how the system was set up back then. Where the, many of the students I was working with, were black, almost all of them, and a few Latinx students. And the system had clearly failed them miserably. And I could see it, because these students were brilliant, they were bright in so many ways. But they have not been given the proper instruction. [Mmhmm] So I became, you know, I started learning, learning a lot about our school system. And I really had to change me, because I had all these years, like spent all this time assimilating and trying to fit into this norm. And just having those students in front of me, I can't do that anymore. [Mmm!] My students, I have to be who I am, and show them that, so that they too can be who they are, bring their authentic selves to the learning. And together, we, we did that.

06:39 Dr. Jenkins: So at this point, you’re beginning to liberate, right? [Yes] You had to lead. And now it's time to be liberated so that you can also help others become liberated. So what did it feel like? You know, the students, here they are primarily African American, Latinx, here you are coming in? Have they recognized yet, that she….what is she? [Laughter] Okay. What did that mean? 

07:00 Dr. Ebbe: So this is the funny part like, I would, you know, they would say, ‘Can I call you just Miss R?’ because back then my name was Miss Rangaswamy? And I would say, ‘No, you have to learn to spell my entire name correctly.’ [Oh, wow] Yeah. And they got extra credit for it. [Wow] I also will learn your names and pronounce them correctly. So there was this understanding about that. But there was also like, you know, this deep work we did around social-emotional learning, but also the academics. Connecting the work, the learning in the classroom, to what was important to the students, lifting their voice. We had incredible family engagement. Our families were in the classroom, supporting us all the time. And it's because we spent the time fostering those relationships. And one of the students wrote to me some years later, who's now working for a nonprofit, and said, ‘Thank you for teaching me how to read.’ And I wasn't a reading teacher at that time, I was a science and math teacher. [Right.] But I had to take on this identity to teach all of it, right? As a teacher, I'm a reading teacher, I'm a math teacher, I'm a science teacher, so that my students could succeed.

08:16 Dr. Jenkins: So as a part of liberation, you have to learn to teach the children, and not just the content. And you did something kind of special as you became liberated yourself, you began to understand the power of connections – for others in seeing the children, in them seeing you – and I think that was really masterful to have them to learn how to spell your name. [Mmhmm]. Just saying your name was one thing, but then to spell it correctly. And you were also reciprocally, learning how to spell their names and learning the students. So that's, that's pretty powerful. So tell us, from moving from that, okay? Now, you’re having this powerful experience, you’re a teacher? And you wanted to go into administration? What happened? How did that happen?

09:00 Dr. Ebbe: So a lot of that was actually inspired at first, by my students. They, you know, they saw that we were making changes in the classroom together. And some of them said to me, you know, you should think about becoming a principal at a school so that you can, you know, do more for more kids. So they were the ones who first [wow] put the thought into my head. And I thought, ‘Oh, that's, that's interesting. Let me look into that.’ And at that time, I was still new to the United States, relatively, I didn't know much about the American school system. So I was still learning. And then I became principal when, you know, got my doctorate and leadership, and became principal at Shorewood Hills Elementary in Madison. And that school, that was very, it's still very, diverse, about 30 different languages are spoken. And, you know, it was a school that had so many language learners, that one of the first things we did together, to educate to liberate, is to really ensure that the education we are providing our students is truly inclusive, that our ELs and any student is not being pulled out of the classroom will taken somewhere else for instruction. But how do we truly, as teachers – and the teachers are amazing – collaborate and plan together for all students in the classroom? Right? [Right] How do we differentiate instruction, and ensure every student is achieving at high levels?

10:41 Dr. Jenkins: Wow. So that particular strategy, you pushed it pretty hard. And so when we talk about all of these disparities that we see. Wisconsin being number one in the nation. Madison, here we are sitting with some of the highest achieving students, but yet we have some serious disparities that mirror those of Wisconsin. So you pushing in like that? What happened to the disparities with all of those ELL students? In that particular school? What, what happened? What did the data say?

11:11 Dr. Ebbe: I want to back up a little bit before I talk about, about the data. Because when we started doing that inclusive work, the biggest thing, biggest work we all had to do, is change our mindsets. [Mmm] About what instruction is or should be. To really, I mean, really unlearning what we have learned. And, you know, in our university teaching in our, you know, learning from our society that has made us so acculturated into this white supremacy culture, right? We have to unlearn that. Shift our mindsets [mm] and really dig in thinking, and really, you know, talking about and helping our students understand that we believe that all students can succeed at high levels [mmhmm]. So that was the first step. And then really reorganizing instruction so that students get what they need right in the classroom. And what we saw in our data was pretty incredible. [Mmm] We saw all students achieving at high level, [wow] we had 85% proficiency, or, or around that ballpark, every year –

12:26 Dr. Jenkins: With all students?

12:28 Dr. Ebbe: Mmhmm. With all students. [Wow] And, you know, there was, there were years when I remember looking at some data where 100% of our African-American students were proficient.

12:38 Dr. Jenkins: You said 100% of your African-American students were proficient?

12:44 Dr. Ebbe: Were proficient in reading.

12:45 Dr. Jenkins: In reading, specifically. And so it's possible 

12:50 Dr. Ebbe: It's possible, and that, [Wow], that's the spirit. And that's the, that's what we need to keep thinking about. This is actually possible because race is a social construct. We made it up.

13:03 Dr. Jenkins: Well, you heard it right here only on Lead to Liberate - race is a social construct, pushing in the power of believing that all children 100% of the African-American children in reading were proficient. That’s powerful, Dr. Ebbe. That’s powerful.

13:20 Dr. Ebbe: It was, it was. It's, it's amazing, you know, when, when we achieve like that, as a school. And then, in 2017, we earned the award, the National Blue Ribbon Award for high academic achievement.

13:35 Dr. Jenkins: The National Blue Ribbon Award. Wow! For high academic achievement.

13:40 Dr. Ebbe: And it's the work that the whole community did together. Right. [Wow.] The teachers, the students, the families.

13:46 Dr. Jenkins: Wow, that's a, award, nationally recognized, for cumulative work. That just wasn't one year. [Yeah.[ So once you started in terms of pushing in, knowing that you had 30 different languages in your building, and pushing in all children – 85% proficiency, 100% proficient some years with the African-American students. That's leading to liberate. And it reminds me of that very little girl who wanted to ride a bike [laughter] n her neighborhood. And the protests happened in front of a family. And in spite of that, or should we say because of that, it led you right here to Madison, Wisconsin, what you showed as a teacher, and you showed as a principal. But now you've been elevated to Deputy Associate Superintendent, [yes]. What's your plan? What are you planning to do right here in Madison? How are you going to impact and continue to lead to liberate?

14:43 Dr. Ebbe: So now, as the Deputy Associate Superintendent of Middle Schools – and I just love doing this work – I think about and reflect on, you know, everything. My, my experience as a leader so far, and what I've learned from all my colleagues around me in the community and our scholars. As I do this work, as well, we are in a pandemic, right? And,ah, we have learned in this pandemic, that it has exasperated all the inequities that exist in our community. So um, with, with that in mind, we are always putting social-emotional learning and well-being of students first. For example, this year, you know, the big conversation we had with principals together was, how do we start the year centering on social-emotional learning, centering on relationships, making sure that every scholar who walks into our building has a trusted adult that they can go to? How do we foster collaboration among our young people in the classroom so that they can support one another and problem solve? What routines are we establishing in the classroom? So that was the first go to, you know, to start the school year. But then also leaning into academics, right? Thinking about what do we need our students to be able to do, our scholars to be able to learn and do, not just now, but down the future? What, what are they going to be doing in high school? What are they going to be doing beyond high school? Thinking about all of those things and planning. So that means, really thinking about what standards and high expectations we are putting in front of our students every day. And how are we breaking it down for students? So if our scholars are needing a specific skill, how are we providing those, the targeted skills instruction, right in the classroom, whether it's reading, whether it's math, social-emotional learning, whatever it is. How are we doing that in the classroom and supporting them? How are we getting them to think about their futures? What does it mean to be ready for high school and beyond? Through the ACP learning? The Academic and Career Planning is ACP. What is a GPA mean? What, what is expected of you in high school? Thinking about that right away in sixth grade. So those are all of the things we are doing, and also at the same time, right now, we're in the middle of looking at curriculum adoption for literacy in middle school.

17:48 Dr. Jenkins: Wow, Dr. Ebbe, I'm telling you, this has really been one of my favorite shows. And just to hear directly from you, she's like an icon here in Wisconsin, and throughout our district – everyone knows her, all the children know her, that's the most important part. And the way that you lead, you have led, and what you're going to do for MMSD, we are so grateful for that. And we know that we're headed, it's not good enough to just do one, right, National Blue Ribbon School. We're going to have several of our schools become National Blue Ribbon [yes] under her leadership, as she partners with her friend in crime, Dr. Hicks, herself. Okay. So thank you for joining us, listeners. Thank you, again, for listening to Lead to Liberate. Right here, we try to uncover some of those things that are breakthroughs, to help everyone to become liberated. We know that we can do it. You heard Dr. Ebbe – 100% of African-American students were proficient in reading. Did you hear her? We can do it. So let's come back together again next week, and I look forward to you being here with us. Thank you, again, Dr. Ebbe for all that you've done for us. 

18:59 Dr. Ebbe: Thank you, Dr. Jenkins.

19:03 Student Speaker: You're listening to Lead to Liberate, a podcast by the Madison Metropolitan School District demonstrating how the more we know, the more we grow.

00:12 Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins: Hello, and welcome to Lead to Liberate. How about that music? I love that music. I am Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins, and I am your podcast host. Yes, the Superintendent of Madison Metropolitan School District, one of the finest school districts in the country, here on Lead to Liberate. What we do, we go behind the scenes with some of our employees. And they actually tell you how they are leading to liberate. Today's guest, is just like the guest of the past: She has a lot to say. During the pandemic, over the last 30 months, she's been at the forefront, very much back behind the scene, but very much holding us together. I'm telling you, as we've all had our different shares of challenges, she's been right there. Yes. The one and only Dr. Kristen Guetschow. So, Dr. Guetschow. How are you today?
 
00:59: Dr. Kristen Guetschow: I'm great. Thanks for the invitation to be here today. I really appreciate it.
 
01:02: Dr. Jenkins: Yeah, glad to have you here. And given all that you've been doing over the last 30 months. And I know for us, it's been kind of like, a little shaky, but everyone expects you -- because you've been holding everybody together [laughter]. How are you? Okay, how are you? Really?
 
01:15: Dr. Guetschow: You know, I'm definitely doing okay. I think that we're in a space where we're coming through some really rough times as individuals and as a district. And I think that every day, I'm seeing signs of stability, and hope, and moving forward. And that is just what brings me, the um, I think when any of us have hope that's going to help us move forward and figure out what comes next. And this is just a great time to feel where we can see those seeds really have been planted and starting to come to fruition.
 
01:47: Dr. Jenkins: Yeah. And I tell you, Dr. Guetschow, behind the scenes -- like you've been through multiple superintendents, right now? Over these last 30 months, I think we could probably say we've had three superintendents, right? At least three superintendents last 30 months, and you've seen other leadership changes. The pandemic? So many things that we've talked about internationally, right? [Mmhmm.] What's happening with our students, with our staff, with our families, what have been some of those things that you pushed in on to lead to liberate, to ensure that we get some sense of stability [mmhmm] amongst our students, our staff, and our families to be able to help them make it through these challenging times?
 
02:24: Dr. Guetschow: I think one of the things that we've done really early on was to recognize that there were mental health challenges that were associated with the physical health challenges. And I think, Dr. Jenkins, you were a key advocate and cheerleader for talking about the whole child from the very beginning. And I think that because of that, we've been able to have conversations about what our students, and our staff, and our families need. As a community, what we need to figure out how to bring that stability back from a time that was just unprecedented in multiple ways, right? We know that we were dealing with physical health challenges. But we also know there are other pandemics, where we were bringing to light, the challenges that our students, and staff, and other family, other community members experienced through discrimination, through health inequities. And we really need to grapple with that in the ongoing fashion in order to figure out how to continue emerging from this time.
 
03:22: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, you're exactly right. And you happen to sit on the Metrics team, our medical metrics team. Well, we are not only just talking about the social justice issues [mmhmm] that were going on during the time, but we were also talking about vaccinations hesitancy, and we’re trying to just balance it, because it wasn't that people just didn't want to take the vaccinations. Right? And what how did you help manage that? And what were you hearing, to best position us as a district to keep moving forward?
 
03:50: Dr. Guetschow: So I think one of the things that we just really talked about early on as a district is that, you know, we know some things to help us get through. Even though we've never been through a pandemic, we've certainly know what it means to create stability for students or families who are going through traumatic experiences, right? [Mmhmm] So we knew that communication was important. We knew that hope was important. We knew that relationships were and are important. We know that we need our students to have a sense of hope and a future. So we knew that there were elements that needed to be part of what we were thinking about were key to move forward through this challenging time. And we had to do it together. So while each of us experienced the last 30 months in a different way, in some ways, it was a universal experience. But it all affected us very differently. And we have to recognize that we need to take care of all of us to make sure that we're all moving forward to make sure that our students are becoming those amazing scholars that we know they can be.
 
04:46: Dr. Jenkins: Right exactly. I tell you even though this is the pandemic, and we had so many losses, so many lives lost, this is one of my proudest moments as an educator. As I saw us come together now as a school, but as a community. And really truly, you know, as a country, in the world, and say, ‘Hey, we have to lean in together,’ [mmhmm]. And but now, doing this in a virtual space, you know? And so, were there other things created, so that students or staff, how do we pour into protecting the mental health? Because during these times, isolation really began to set in all of us. I'm telling you, I am just as guilty, I was impacted, didn't realize how much I needed to be with staff, students, and the community. So what are things that you do to try to address that?
 
05:33: Dr. Guetschow: Yeah, we really recognized early on that our, we had an opportunity to really lead with the social-emotional learning, and universal supports that all of our students needed. So our teachers, our student services staff, did an amazing job of really thinking about how do we make sure we're teaching math and we're teaching coping skills, right? [Mmhmm] That's been a MMSD strategy for a long time. And we were able to translate that virtually. And now, of course, as we come back into our community. And first and foremost, as we come back, how do we build and rebuild that community, you know, those relationships are key. [mmhmm] And we know that, we just did, have the whole child thrive, we need to make sure that they're in a place of safety, where they see themselves, they see that they are loved and cared for and seen, for everything that they are, the strengths and the challenges that they bring day to day, and that tomorrow's a new day. And that we continue to build our community, through those relationships, through that community. And then our, our children, and our families, and our staff thrive that way, too. We know that it wasn't just our children who were struggling, the adults were as well.
 
06:39: Dr. Jenkins: Yeah. And that's something I appreciate you always keep the adults in it as well. And something that we've all had to learn. It's not just our students, it's the adults. They're healthy, they can take care of our students. And as you mentioned, we're emerging now, out of the pandemic, but we still have some characteristics from a mental standpoint that we're all trying to address. We have a program, bouncing back? [laughter] Talk, talk to me a little bit about bouncing back, because now as I’m out at the schools, and I get that language from the students. [Yep, yep, that’s right.] . So what are they talking about, the elementary students know about bouncing back. What's this going on?
 
07:14: Dr. Guetschow: Oh, yeah. So we, we have a number of different initiatives through our elementary, middle, and high schools, where we do universal screening for trauma exposure and symptoms, and Bounce Back is one of them. [OK] And so we really find out from our teachers, where they might find some students that they're feeling worried about. And also we ask them about what their strengths are, right? So for all, it's mostly third graders, we say, you know, how are things going for your classroom? And where are some places of challenge? And where are some places of strength? And then some of our students who are needing something a little bit extra, we have a 10 week bounce back group that we co-lead with therapists from the community with our student services team members, and students learn all kinds of coping skills that they love. The adults who are teaching it love. And like you said, very often, they'll come out into the school environment and say, you know, use some of these strengths or use some of these skills, and let people know that they're, you know, teaching, teaching someone coming in there, their new breathing technique, right?
 
08:17: Dr. Jenkins: Right! That’s what I was learning with the kids! Right, yeah, yeah.
 
08:21: Dr. Guetschow: Yeah, you know, so this is, this is how you do, you know, this type of breathing, you know, this is a volcano breath, you know, all kinds of all the ways [All of that] Exactly. So this is one of the places that bring me a lot of hope -- is that we are teaching our students skills that they are applying young, and then they're teaching the grown-ups in their lives how to use these skills. And I really think that, you know, for all the challenges that are out there, our, our students are coming up with more in their back pocket for tools in their toolkit to manage whatever comes next. Right? We don't know what the next stressful events going to be in anyone's individual life, in our community, in our society. But I really believe that our kids are resilient. They've been taught some skills, they've been applying these skills. And that gives me a lot of excitement about how they're going to be able to kind of become their best beings moving forward.
 
09:13: Dr. Jenkins: Well, I really want to thank you for the bouncing back because a student really helped me. [laughter] After we were going through tough negotiations, I'm in a building, and I see one of our scholars in the hall, and I'm asking what he's doing. And he was telling me about these breathing techniques. [laughter] I said, ‘Where did you get this from?’ So he said, ‘This is what we're learning.’ So he started to show me [Yeah]. And I told him that, you know, I know it, because I go through some of these stresses, we were just finishing negotiations. Now I'm talking to a third grader, right? And he’s ‘Oh! You could do it as well. This is all you have to do.’ And I just started laughing. That's okay. I have to get into the Bounce Back program.
 
09:43: Dr. Guetschow: That’s right. We have to, we have to know where we find our teachers in life. And often it’s them.
 
09:48: Dr. Jenkins: So I'm hoping when he graduates I can hire him right here in the district someday in the future, you know. [laughter] But I tell you, it's been a lot though. Because not only have the students with their social-emotional and mental health. Staff, as you said. But then our families, and then we have a lot of multi-generational families within our community. So we stayed out longer with virtual, and then coming back and we're still seeing residuals. And…But we do see the excitement of being back in person now. People want to be back, but we have to kind of help them. What are we doing in our schools? And how do students know how they can reach out to someone? How would…I'm a parent? [Yeah] My child is not successful right now. For whatever reason, or I don't even want to say successful, they’re just having challenges communicating. Who do we reach to? How do we reach to them? What are the programs that we may have?
 
10:38: Dr. Guetschow: Yeah, I'm thrilled you asked that question, because I get a chance to promote our amazing student services staff [mmhmm]. We have highly-trained mental health professionals in each of our schools. We have school psychologists, school social workers, school counselors, our nurses, and, and you know, all the interactions that our teachers and others have every day. We've got lots of people that are there to support our kids as a whole child, right? Not just to learn reading, although that’s important, is to make sure that they've got all the skills they need to be successful in life. And I would really say that families should start with who they have a relationship with. It could be the teacher, it could be calling the school and asking for an opportunity to talk to the school psychologist or school social worker, and really expressing you know, where your concerns are. Really getting a chance to hear where your child's thriving, but also, like, to problem solve together, because you are the expert of your child, as a parent, and we have some expertise that we can, like, walk alongside you with. And I really think that that combination together, you just can't beat - between the expertise of the parent and the expertise of the school, I really think that amazing things can happen.
 
And then they can really help navigate what the next things are. So it might be that there's something right in school that can get a support, because we have lots of programs, and partnerships with outside community agencies. And also, there's, there's lots of other places that we can, can get connected with for support. For example, we just contracted with an agency called Care Solace, [mmhmm] and we'll put the link on the podcast page. So Care Solace is a great program that we have that can really support our families, our students, their families, staff and their families to really manage the complexities of navigating mental health in the community. We know that it takes multiple phone calls to find a right therapist or right support out in the community. And it's just an opportunity that families or staff folks or students can look to navigate mental health resources within their webpage, but also to talk to a live, real live person to help make some of those phone calls and help get connected to resources in the community. So we just know that, that managing your family's health and mental health care can be a real challenge. And it's just one more resource that we have available to staff and families.
 
12:58: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, that's awesome. I tell you going through these times, we know that our most marginalized families, our families who are multi generational, we know the impact, the real impact on black and brown families, our families with students with special needs. It's real. [mmhmm] So what I often hear from families, how do we connect? And how do we get therapists -- individuals who perhaps look like us – is, what are we doing in MMSD? You know, that's, that's a real deal in relationships. [It is] So what do we have?
 
13:32: Dr. Guetschow: Yeah, it's a real deal. So, a couple things. One is just recognizing that it is a real deal, right, of naming that. The second is, we're continuing to work with our community partners, right? So some of this was something that we can work on within MMSD, and some of it is, you know, how do we work on it as a whole community. And even beyond that, this is a national issue. We are applying for some grants that really work to diversify our staff. And so that is part of our long-term planning with some grow your own projects. And we also are doing, there's some small but important things. Like, we've hired a Spanish-speaking Mental Health Navigator. So we’ve got someone that can support families in managing those mental health navigation needs out in the community and getting them connected to resources, so that language isn't a barrier. We hired a mental health BRS, so a bilingual resource specialist, who can really support in taking down all the language barriers that exist around accessing mental health resources. So small but important pieces that we're doing, both in our some of our programs in expanding, as well as really looking to diversify our staff. And then it just really we need to continue to grapple with this as a community, as a nation, that we have a real shortage of mental health professionals nationwide, and we really need to target diversifying our mental health professionals as we go. And families should be really comfortable, really continuing to look for resources that feel comfortable to them, right? You're not going to benefit if you don't feel like it's the right match. And so to keep looking until you find the right person for you and your family, either at school or in the community.
 
15:21: Dr. Jenkins: Yes, that's real talk, for real people. Because as we're trying to lead to liberate, we want to make sure that voice is important. We want to make sure that belonging, part of our core values are there. And I'm just very proud of some of the work that we'll continue to do in our Student Services area. And I have to say, right here, Dr. Guetschow, she is very humble, and did not know that I was going to say this. But she's well thought of throughout the state, she but because she's so humble, she tries to be quiet about it, but I'm going to brag on you for a moment. Everyone knows that you don't only help in our district, you help others throughout the state, you help with DPI, you do a lot of things like that. How do you manage to keep yourself together with all that's on your plate? [laughter]
 
16:10 Dr. Dr. Guetschow: Oh, my gosh, well, that, you know, this is like, talking about the personal is a lot harder than talking…
 
16:18 Dr. Jenkins: Yes, it is, see. [laughter]. She could talk about everyone else. She was doing fine. Did you hear that? Did you just see that? That's why I had to bring it out here. [that’s right]. She will not talk about herself.
 
16:28: Dr. Guetschow: Well, I practice what I preach, I surround myself with really an amazing team who will keep me humble and keep me motivated and give me hope. And I really, the work that our staff do every single day to support all of our families - and the work that my team does - and when I see what our individual students and families are doing every day, I just know that we have work that is taking hold, and I, it brings me excitement. And I know that tomorrow's a new day and we try again. So I think that it's complex work. But I know that each step we're taking is in taking the step in the right direction that just keep advocating for our students and families. And that keeps me going every day.
 
17:10: Dr. Jenkins: Wow, well, I really appreciate it. We've had a long history in MMSD of just outstanding individuals in this department. And Kerry Stampfli, one of your close [mmhmm], close [yep] colleagues who had stepped up in the road, and the void, and she's also going to stay with the department here, with the district. What has it been like you two? You've been like tag-teaming, running together? Like, what's that like with you and Kerry Stampfli?
 
17:40: Dr. Guetschow: Yeah, so I, you know, this, this is my 25th year in the school district. And I would say, you know, that is one of the key strategies that I've had each year -- is that I've there are, you know, multiple other staff people that I learned something from every single day, and Kerry is absolutely one of those folks. [mmhmm, right] So mostly, I just feel so grateful to have someone that we just can sit down and talk about where things are going on in our hearts, and where things are going on in our heads so we can problem solve. And we can have sympathy and empathy for each other as we're figuring out what can be hard things. And you know, also we are MMSD employees, and we're also humans that have families, and other challenges, and, you know. So it's nice to have someone that can be a friend and a colleague, to recognize someone as a whole person. Like we like to look at our students, right to also look at our colleagues that way as well. But yeah, incredibly grateful to have someone who just challenges my thinking. And lets me know if I'm in the right path or if I'm not, because that's what you need and in the world is someone that can, can let you know, the good, and the bad, and the ugly. [laughter]
 
18:57 Dr. Jenkins: Well, I tell you Dr. Guetschow, we really do appreciate you being here today. And I'm glad our listeners had an opportunity to hear you, and to also learn the wonderful things we have going on in MMSD. I am looking forward for not only what you're doing now, but what you're going to do in the future, as we continue to try to be one of those districts that's leading to liberate. I thank you so much for your time. And listeners, we thank you for listening in again. Dr. Guetschow.

0:00:11 Student Speaker: From the Madison Metropolitan School District, this is Lead to Liberate, a podcast documenting stories of inspiration, growth, and empowerment across our schools.

0:00:27 Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins: Hello, and welcome to Lead to Liberate. I am Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins, a very proud superintendent here in the Madison Metropolitan School District. I am your host of Lead to Liberate. Today, we have a very fine, very fine teacher with us today who is going to talk about a little bit of her challenges, a little bit of her opportunities, and why she chose to leave where she was and come here to Madison Metropolitan School District. We have with us today, Ms. Nicole Carrion Vaughn.

0:00:57 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: Hello.

0:00:58 Dr. Jenkins: Hello. How are you doing? [laughter]

0:01:00 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: I am doing alright.

0:01:00 Dr. Jenkins: How are you doing? Okay. I'm just so ready to get going with you here. But tell us a little bit, how are you doing? You know, the last 30 months going through a pandemic, here you are not a native of Wisconsin, if we have it correct? You actually...can you tell us a little bit where you come from, and why did you choose to come to Madison Metropolitan School District [oh man] to start in your career? 

0:01:26 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: Oh, man. I'll try to make it as, I guess, brief as possible. So, I'm originally from Manhattan, New York. My whole family's from New York. [Mmhmm] But I ended up moving when I was about three- or four-years-old to Alabama. So I grew up there, and went through the Mobile Public School system there, elementary, middle, and high. And ended up going to my undergrad there, which was the University of South Alabama. Got my Bachelor's in Music Performance as well as Music Education. And then when I was about to go into grad school, I was trying to think of different places I wanted to go. I didn't really want to stay in Alabama at all. So I auditioned at USC in California, auditioned at Boston Conservatory. Auditioned at the Georgia Southern University, and a couple other places. And so I ended up going to Georgia Southern, which is where my now husband went and finished his graduate degree. And by about, I think about six months in, I ended up losing my TA-ship because of a merger between Georgia Southern University and Emory University. And so I was kind of in this rut. I wasn't sure if I wanted to continue with my Master's at this point. You know, I had already kind of gone through like, at least six months and I was like, ‘Ah, you know, I don't know if I can continue with this.’

0:02:46 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: But then I ended up getting a call from a close friend of mine who was the professor at UW-Madison for flutists. And he was like, ‘Hey, you know, I've heard that you're looking for a new Master's program.’ And I was like, ‘Well, yeah, kind of. You know, I'm not sure.’ He was like, ‘Okay, I need you to get on a plane. I need you to come and audition, and we're gonna get you squared away.’ And I was like, ‘Uh, are you sure?’ He's like, ‘I need to see you here, in like February.’ And I was like, ‘Okay, great.’ So I came, auditioned. Within 30 minutes, they were like, ‘Yeah, so you've already been accepted, so we're gonna go ahead and take care of your needs, whatever TA-ship we can get you, we'll get you one.’ And so I ended up going and getting my Master's here in Flute Pedagogy as well as performance. At this point then, this was, I wanna say probably December 2019, was when we were starting to kind of slowly start to shut down a little [mmhmm] because of COVID, and I'm getting ready to graduate in like five months, and I receive an email from somebody in an MMSD saying, "Hey, we're looking for educators to fill the spot at Jefferson Middle School. We know that you haven't applied, but we're reaching out to see if you would be willing to do so."

0:04:03 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: And so I was like, ‘You know, this is great. I'd love to teach, but I have still, like, five months left of grad school. There's no way with my schedule, I'd be able to come in and teach.’ And so they were like, ‘Okay, well, we'll reach out to you in five months.’ And I was like, ‘Okay, you know, whatever. They're not actually going to.’ I was planning on trying to find a different job at this point. And then five months later, in April, I get an email from Mr. Larry Love, and he's like, ‘Hey, I heard...are you still willing to come and interview for this job?’ I was like, ‘This, this is…’  I'm strong in my faith. And I'm like, ‘God must be playing with me. Okay, let me go ahead and [laughter] see what this is all about.’ And so I said, ‘Sure, you know, I'd apply.’ So I applied and they were like, ‘Okay, we'd love for you to come in and interview.’ And so I came, and interviewed, and the next day they were like, ‘Would you like the job?’ I was like, ‘Sure.’ So it was kind of just like handed to me on a silver platter, it almost felt, felt like. So that's how I kind of ended up here. Long journey, but...

0:05:06 Dr. Jenkins: Yeah. Long journey. [laughter] I'll tell you. From New York to Alabama to here.

0:05:10 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: Oh, yeah.

0:05:10 Dr. Jenkins: And I just tell you, having gone to school in Mobile, Alabama, that's quite something as well. My roommate, Mississippi Valley State University too, was from Mobile.

0:05:21 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: Oh, okay.

0:05:21 Dr. Jenkins: And we used to talk about the education system. But I will just tell you, Ms. Carrion Vaughn, we're excited to have you. And now, as we're recruiting and trying to retain staff, we often hear, it's hard to recruit individuals from Down South, and it's hard to keep them here. [Mmhmm] But you've had quite the story. So how's it going for you so far? Let's do that first.

0:05:42 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: So far in MMSD, well, I'll start at my school. I am really blessed to be able to work with, you know, the students that I do have. I will say I've had a lot of challenges, specifically at the school that I'm working at. Just, with overall, dealing with your typical behaviors and things like that. But the, I guess the blessing in disguise is that I get to teach a little over two-thirds of the school [mmm] as a music teacher.

0:06:12 Dr. Jenkins: Okay. Okay.

0:06:14 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: And so even when I don't teach the other third of the students, they somehow find me.

0:06:19 Dr. Jenkins: Wow.

0:06:20 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: And they somehow know me. [Wow] And so, um, you know, they’ve, the students will try and test my buttons here and there, whatever, and they'll see what they can get away with and see what they can't get away with. But what they don't know is, I grew up differently from them.

[chuckle]

0:06:35 Dr. Jenkins: Right, Right.

0:06:37 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: So, the way that I grew up in the South, it was all about respect. [Right] It was all about making sure that you're holding yourself to a high standard. [Right] You don't have to have somebody else trying to push you to hold up to that standard.

0:06:46 Dr. Jenkins: Wow.

0:06:47 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: And um, so I take that and I put that in my teaching. And I tell my students, ‘Hey, I've asked you to do X, Y, Z. I'm gonna continue to push you to do X, Y, Z. I'm not gonna let you slide from that. You're gonna do it eventually. [Mmhmm] Whether you don't want to do it right now, that's up to you.’

0:07:02 Dr. Jenkins: Wow.

0:07:02 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: But just know that regardless, I'm gonna hold you to the standard. [Right] And they'll be like, ‘Oh, but Ms. Vaughn, Ms. Vaughn, I don't wanna do it.’ I was like, ‘I know. Sometimes I don't wanna get up outta bed and go to work, but sometimes I have to.’

0:07:12 Dr. Jenkins: Right.

0:07:13 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: Most times, all the time I have to, unless I'm sick. So, you know, and I try to kind of instill that into them. And so the other students hear a little bit about it, and then they're trying to come and be buddy-buddy with me. I'm like, ‘Look, don't be buddy-buddy until you come into my classroom. You might feel differently.’ 

0:07:28 Dr. Jenkins: [laughter] Right. Right. Right.

0:07:30 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: But yeah, no, so it's definitely a little different coming from the south, coming to here. I tend to notice that from when I was in school, students didn't really have a choice. [Right] Like, you do this, you do as I say, not as I do. Up here it seems as though with the students, I've seen the students have a little more leeway. They tend to kind of get to do whatever they want do and kind of skirt by it. But, you know, I kind of try to bring in the mix and like, ‘Look, okay. I'm a music teacher. I'm totally okay with, you know, teaching you whatever you want learn, but we've gotta do this. This is a partnership. [Wow] This isn't a one-way. I'm not gonna be a dictator. You're not gonna do whatever you want because you're 12. So, [laughter] we're gonna work together. You tell me something that you want to learn. You get to follow some of these rules – get to, you don't have to, you get to – follow some of these rules, [right] and we'll work together and create a community.’ That's how it should be. Learning is a part of, it's a community, it's not just a, it’s not a lecture. It's a community where we can learn from each other. And so I think coming from the south and coming up here, having those two differences, and being able to kind of blend that together is pretty cool.

0:08:48 Dr. Jenkins: Wow. So this is actually your third year, correct? 

0:08:51 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: This is my third year here. Yes.

0:08:35 Dr. Jenkins: Yeah. And let me tell you, over the last 30 months, going through the pandemic, historic, right? Here I am 30-plus years, and individuals who've been around, this shook us up in the world.

0:09:05 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: Oh, yeah.

0:09:06 Dr. Jenkins: And then you came in the midst of a pandemic, a dual pandemic must we have, right? [Mmhmm] You're dealing with the health pandemic and then you dealing with the public lynching of Mr. Floyd up in the Twin Cities. [Mmhmm] And as I was going around the schools, because we were just coming back into the schools, and knowing that students were socially, emotionally, mentally at a different level, they had been in isolation. I'm walking around in schools, I guess I should tell everybody how we met. [chuckle] And students are trying to re-engage, staff trying to re-engage. Students are tired, staff tired, and I'm offering a little support, to staff. But when I went in this one class, the students were engaged, and the teacher had on this particular [laughter] kind of clothing  [laughter] and looking funny. But the students were all there, and the respect in the class, just how you described it, the blend between who our students are – because our core values, we believe in voice, we believe in belonging. But you know, the thing that you did was really more of a Goal Two for us, in terms of a thriving environment. I saw students who we traditionally, during this time last year, we’re seeing struggling. We were seeing them struggle. They were engaged. They looked at you with a lot of respect. And mind you, to our listening audience, she was only a second-year teacher at this point, but had the maturity of a veteran teacher. And that was amazing. So as we're moving forward, and we're talking about the arts, that's another thing. You had them engaged in the arts, in which we know the arts are going to be a big part of how we're moving forward. So, tell us now that you've been going through the pandemic, and students are back. What's the difference this year versus last year with the energy level? 

0:11:07 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: Well, it's a little, it’s a little complicated. Last year, obviously, you know, the students were finally back in the classroom, and so they were excited to finally see their friends and physically be in a space where, um, they could be around people, which is something that was very difficult, of course, for me and I'm 27-years-old, for kids who are 11, 12, 13, can't be around their friends. That was something that was really amazing to see, was just how they lit up. But, you know, they're finally in that routine now. They're back at school. [Mmhmm] They're kind of figuring out where their place is. And I think the energy that I'm seeing now in comparison to last year is, the students are...the students do want to learn, they want to come in. There’s, you know, if I'm going to be honest, there's some things that students still have to figure out, [mmhmm] such as like how we actually engage with each other. Maybe ways that they're talking to each other. Those are opportunities for learning, for sure. I've seen a little more, I guess negatives on that side, but the positives as far as the engagement and the learning is concerned, they are engaging. They are asking questions. 

They're finally feeling comfortable enough to raise their hand and say, ‘Ms. Vaughn, what did you say about your musical theater? Like, where did it start again?’ Trying to get those, if they were distracted for a moment by talking, trying to get that back. Now, of course, in the moment that might be annoying to a teacher, right? Where you just said it probably three or four times, and then a student who was talking says, ‘Hey, Ms. Vaughn, what'd you say?’ Like, [chuckle] it can be annoying, but at the same time, understanding that these are kids, like they're going to be like that. And of course, I'm going say, ‘Didn't I just say it?’ And they're like, ‘'m sorry Ms. Vaughn, I was just talking.’ I was like, ‘Okay, so then what'd we learn?’ Then they're like, ‘we probably shouldn't talk.’ ‘All right. So then do what you need to do to make sure that you're going to focus.’ And sometimes they'll get up and they'll move. Sometimes, that's something that I've noticed a little that's actually very exciting is that students are actually making that choice for themselves, [wow] to go someplace and sit in a place where there's going to be the least amount of distractions, things like that.

0:13:41 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: This morning I was just talking with a student probably, about 20...no, no, like 10 minutes before class started. They had come upstairs and they were asking a teacher for lotion. And so I was talking to the student who didn't necessarily do too well in my class last quarter. And I looked at him and I was like, ‘Hey.’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘What's something I could do to help you move forward this quarter, maybe boost that grade up? What's something that’s going to help you succeed?’ And he just kind of looked at me and he shrugged his shoulders. So I was like, ‘No, you know, you're a bright kid. Use that brain of yours. That same brain that told you to come upstairs and grab some lotion, use that same brain.’ He's like, ‘I don't know, maybe help me not get distracted.’ I was like, ‘Okay, let's talk about it. What's something that I can do?’ And he started talking to me about, you know, maybe ways that he could be less distracted. And that's something that's been definitely more visible this year in comparison to last year.

0:14:38 Dr. Jenkins: Wow. I tell you, when I'm listening to you, it’s just like an old soul sitting here talking at 27, reaching our students, building relationships, setting expectations, human enough to allow a 11-year-old, a 12-year-old to be at an 11-year-old or a 12-year-old. Everyone wants to get right back at it. That's the way that we've done things – right back at it. But we have to realize social-emotionally, from a mental standpoint, our students are really and truly at this critical age in middle school and we have to establish relationships. This is what I'm hearing you say. This is what I thought last year when I observed you in class, it was the magic. You're putting the magic in the game. And I just wanna say to a lot of veterans, to our listening audience, if you get a chance to go to a concert, to see Ms. Carrion Vaughn’s students perform, you're gonna be amazed. She's an artist, a true artist, but she has the pedigree behind her that she could be anywhere. And we're so pleased to have you in Madison Metropolitan School District. And I must say this to you too, because we keep it real on Lead to Liberate, she's a young African-American female that has just taken control of what's going on by empowering students, not directing them, by empowering them to have voice and to take ownership for their own learning. I thank you so much for being here with us today.

0:16:06 Nicole Carrion Vaughn: Thank you for having me.

0:16:11 Dr. Jenkins: Yes, definitely. Until next week.

0:16:14 Student Speaker: You’re listening to Lead to Liberate, a podcast by the Madison Metropolitan School District, demonstrating how the more we know, the more we grow.

0:00:11 Student Speaker: From the Madison Metropolitan School District, this is Lead to Liberate, a podcast documenting stories of inspiration, growth, and empowerment across our schools.

0:00:27 Carlton D. Jenkins: Hello, and welcome back to Lead to Liberate. I am Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins, a very proud superintendent of Madison Metropolitan School District. And we really do appreciate everybody choosing and listening in at our podcast each week. We're bringing it to you real. We're going behind the scenes, cutting under the layers that haven't been talked about. What are the challenges? What are the opportunities? And we're bringing real people from MMSD. And we want to know why did they choose MMSD? And we're going to talk to them about their hopes, their aspirations for our children, for our community. Yes, and what it is that they want to leave as their legacy. Today, I am so proud to have with us, our one and only, our former State Superintendent, the individual that was leading us through the pandemic, in many ways. She worked on a local level, state level, on a national and a global level, really trying to make it happen in this historic pandemic. Recently retired, and now she's joining us today in MMSD for a conversation on Lead to Liberate. Yes, very proud to have with us, Ms. Carolyn Stanford Taylor, the individual that has led us through this pandemic and now joining MMSD. How are you Ms. Stanford Taylor? 

0:01:45 Carolyn Stanford Taylor: I am wonderful, thank you. It's so great to be here with you today.

0:01:49 Dr. Jenkins: Oh, we're so glad to have you here. And really, we have you here for us, but we also have you here for the community. Because individuals want to know, what would make Mrs. Carolyn Stanford Taylor, long-time district employee, led the state, the most celebrated African American in Wisconsin's history, come to MMSD? Tell us, why are you really here? 

0:02:13 Carolyn Stanford Taylor: Well, I am MMSD proud. This is where my career began. I started as a teacher with MMSD, moved on to become an administrator here. Spent 21 years here before moving to the state level as Assistant State Superintendent for 17 and a half years, and then as State Superintendent for two and a half years. So when I had the opportunity to come back and to give back, I accepted readily.

0:02:39 Dr. Jenkins: Wow, that’s, that’s really interesting to me because I was sitting there with the ‘Big Five’ superintendents and we had some challenging things to do, ah,  during the pandemic. And one of the things that was really challenging about it, how do we - not just look at ourselves as individual districts, but how do we come together? And there she goes. Mrs. Carolyn Stanford Taylor, she created a space for us to begin to collaborate, and we've been doing that collaboration right now as the ‘Big Five’ superintendents. Tell me, how is that going to play out in our district? You're known for collaborating, you're known for bringing different groups together, your new title here, Deputy Superintendent of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. So what does that mean here in MMSD? 

0:03:23 Carolyn Stanford Taylor: This gives me an opportunity for all of those things that I did at the state, and for all of the experiences that I brought to the state, to use those at a local level. When you're at the state level, you're talking broadly, because districts vary throughout our state. And as you mentioned, bringing the ‘Big Five’ superintendents together was one of my legacy, ah, things that I will always treasure. Because I saw a collaboration with those five who had so much in common. Being a State Superintendent is a lonely job. Right? You're at the top, everything comes to you, everything rests with you, decisions made rest with you. And so to bring them together, with people who have like challenges, because we know those ‘Big Five’ districts have so much in common: you have the majority of our students of color, majority of our students with disabilities, our English Language students. And so why not create a space for you all to have those conversations about strategies that are working for you, or challenges that you are having, and be able to collaborate around those. And I'm so happy to hear that that continues past my term as State Superintendent.

0:04:39 Dr. Jenkins: Well, that's awesome, and definitely is going to continue past your legacy there at the State. But right now in our district, we know we have historical, historical opportunities for our black and our brown students, our students who are receiving special needs services, our students from poverty, our indigenous students. We just have so many historical challenges here in Madison. And we know that if we're truly going to be about disrupting what has happened, we need to use some of your skill set and engaging our families. Can you tell me a little bit about that? What's your intent? Because really and truly, we need our families; and our community in our schools, in our schools with our families, and in our community.

0:05:24 Carolyn Stanford Taylor: Well, let me just say first, Dr. Jenkins, I was so pleased when you accepted the invitation to become the Superintendent of Madison Schools. I think in a lot of ways, we're like thinkers. One of the areas that you and I both agreed upon early, was around early literacy. And beginning in the early stages, so that we create a solid foundation for our students. So that we're not pouring money in at the back-end, we're investing in our students at the very beginning. So those things we agreed upon. And I see your work in terms of the literacy, and how you've created collaborations with others around literacy to lift that up, to train our educators around that, and that's going to pay dividends in the end. The other area is around family, youth voice. And this was one of the things that as a principal when we used to do action research. One of my early research topics was around parent involvement, as at the time is what we called it. And my questioning was, what does that mean? Or is it parent engagement? So before really - this term of engagement really started, it was one of my wonderings. And what does that mean to be engaged? And how do we bring those stakeholders into the educational environment, and value what they bring to the table? Because we know that our families are our first teachers of our students. They have valuable information to share with us. And that we need them to be partners in this enterprise.

0:07:04 Carolyn Stanford Taylor: And I know oftentimes we get so busy with what we're doing day-to-day, that we don't take the time to bring families with us. We don't listen enough to our youth about where they want to go and to let them lead. And we had a brilliant example of that just a couple of weeks ago, we put together a Youth Summit. The first of its kind, in which it was conceived, organized, and facilitated by our high school youth – phenomenal youth – who from beginning to end, right down to inviting the speakers that they wanted to have at this event. There were more than 100 students present, and I can tell you from the students who came from other areas like Verona, who enjoyed the opportunity that these students laid out for them; and the speakers that were invited to this opportunity on topics that they felt were relevant to them. Options beyond high school. Finance, what do we would do with that money? How do we grow? How do we keep it? Restorative justice. Mental health. These were topics that they chose. We listened to the voices of those students. And they facilitated, and they went back to their peers who weren't able to attend, to say, ‘Hey, this is what happened. You should have been there. Next time, you're there.’

0:08:40 Carolyn Stanford Taylor: Wow, that's awesome. And I'll tell you Ms. Stanford Taylor, we can listen to you all day talk about the work that you're doing here and what you plan to do. Recently, we were notified that we have over 560 perfect AP scores. [Wow.] When you look at our high schools, so much going on with our schools, schools being just tops in the state, tops in the county. When we look at our elementary, or we look at our middle schools, we know that we have some outstanding teaching and learning going on. Have one of the best staff in the country. But yet we still have these disparities. And these disparities here in the State of Wisconsin - on the recent NAEP results, we're number one again, and not only just number one, but the next closest state... We had 37% in terms of our disparities, the next closest state had 18%. So now when we think about including these families, you know, we're really excited about this too, right, because we know we have to do this. This thing called the Village Builders. We talk about staffing shortages, talk to us a little bit about this.

0:09:49 Carolyn Stanford Taylor: And actually, Dr. Jenkins started this thinking in terms of, can we give people from the community into our schools, working with our children? We thought about the pandemic, and what happened with our families and our students during that time with them being disconnected and bringing them back into a school environment which they'd been absent from for almost two years. There were some in and out, but mostly being absent. And how did that adjustment, or how did we see that adjustment happening, so that students could maximize their engagement? And so we know just by child development, the things that happen at certain times during a student's life. But looking at our students who had not had a normalized school experience over the last couple of years, how are we bringing them back, and how are we tending to their social-emotional and mental well-being? And so we came up with this idea of bringing people from the community who are advocates for our public schools, who are in working with our kids, volunteering, and doing that kind of work. Bringing them in on a regular basis as a Village Builder. And so at the elementary level, we have people who go into the schools, who work with students around their readiness.

0:11:14 Carolyn Stanford Taylor: It's that warm, nurturing individual who can help students process their emotions, and whatever it is that they bring with them that morning, to get them ready to engage in what's happening in the classroom, so that we don't have students absent from that environment. And then at the high school level, we created positions that are called Student Engagement Specialists, and those folks will work across transition points, because we know that we lose many of our students at that high school transition. So, much of what we're talking about is about relationships. It comes back to relationships. And we know in the early stages... I always say that kindergarten teachers got it right. It's that carpet. [Mmm.] When you bring kids around the carpet. [Yes!] When you can help them see that they belong in that environment. And they talk about what happened, and ‘my baby brother that was born’ and ‘my folks went on this trip’ or ‘grandpa and grandma came to visit,’ those kinds of things help to build community. And so, we have to bring more of that back into the schools where students do believe that the adults in that space are there for them. These are trusted adults that they can go to no matter what's going on in their lives.

0:12:29 Carolyn Stanford Taylor: And so at the middle school and high school level, we have these Student Engagement Specialists, which go across from high school to middle schools. And they spend a great amount of time with those students, building those relationships, creating mentorships to bring back and forth. [Mmm.] And so we're looking for better outcomes because of what we're doing with the Village Builders.

0:12:50 Dr. Jenkins: Wow, that's awesome. And then, also, just the way that you've taken it to the next level. We had some initial thoughts about it, but you come in and you're talking about ‘Grow Your Own.’ I was out, ah, at the schools and I'm seeing individuals from our community [yes, yes] – parents, young people, looking for - initially job opportunities - but now they're having an impact. I had the opportunity to talk to some of them just face-to-face, some of the parents said, "Wow, what a game changer, this opportunity. I knew I needed employment, but now I'm in education. I want to make a difference, and I want to go on and continue my education, and perhaps become a teacher." So I'll just tell you, I have to thank you for what you've done for this whole Village Builder, and just building confidence in our community, ah, as you have. And I'll tell you, we only have a few minutes here left, but I want to also bring out at this time – what has it meant for you to come back, and you see these young talented administrators here in Central Office, and what role would you play with them? 

0:13:50 Carolyn Stanford Taylor: So that was part of the call for me, too. I looked at your administration, and I saw that this was an administration of diversity. There were so many black and brown individuals in leadership positions. And recall, that I started working here in 1980 and things looked a whole lot different. There were many spaces where I was the only person of color. [Wow] And I desired to be able to work in an environment with people who looked like me, who thought like me, who could create those avenues for change in our schools. And I wanted to be a part of that change, because I see that happening with this group of dynamic, young individuals who have such great ideas. But not just ideas, it's the execution of, [mm hmm] and creating this relevance across the district for what it means to have diversity in our schools, and in every space where we have students and families that they might be able to identify with those folks who were in front of them.

0:14:55 Dr. Jenkins: Well, you heard it, Ms. Carolyn Stanford Taylor. She's here today talking to us about where we are, where we're going, and why she chose to come to our district. We're so pleased to have her. And I'm just going to tell you this. As we're coming out of this pandemic, and we still know that it's real, there are things that we're going to have to do differently. And right now we have to engage our families. You heard it directly from her, in terms of our engagement, we have to reach beyond our walls into our communities and bring our communities into our schools in a different way. This is going to be key as we continue to try to transform our district into what we know it can be for all students. And all means all. We're going to finally lay it to rest, the Brown v. the Board of Education, and we're going to execute and do what we need to do in our district to, yes, to lead to liberate. Thank you very much for listening in to us, you've been wonderful.

0:15:59 Student Speaker: You’re listening to Lead to Liberate, a podcast by the Madison Metropolitan School District, demonstrating how the more we know, the more we grow.
 

0:00:10 Student Speaker: From the Madison Metropolitan School District, this is Lead to Liberate, a podcast documenting stories of inspiration, growth, and empowerment across our schools.

0:00:27 Carlton D. Jenkins: Hello and welcome to Lead to Liberate. I am Dr. Carlton D. Jenkins, the very proud superintendent here in Madison Metropolitan School District, and I am the host of this podcast. Today, we have an opportunity to have one of our amazing staff members - this is an individual that's already had an impact on our district and we know that is gonna continue to have an impact. Today, you're gonna have an opportunity to hear her story, why she chose MMSD, and what she hopes to do in the future. Ms. Tara Tindall, how are you? 

0:00:38.4 Tara Tindall: Good.

0:00:39.2 Dr. Jenkins: Okay, great. [Laughter] We're so glad to have you here today. Can you, first of all, just tell us a little bit, in terms of, about yourself, or why you came to MMSD? 

0:00:48.5 Tara Tindall: Sure. I originally grew up in Black River Falls, Wisconsin. That's the home... That's the headquarters for the Ho-Chunk Nation, which is the tribe that I belong to. And I wanted to say, part of the reason why I'm here is because of my own experience growing up in Black River Falls in Wisconsin, in a small rural town, that I did not see myself or my people reflected in the school. I would finish my work and I would ask my fifth-grade teacher, Mrs. Hagan, if I could go to the library. And she would smile, really proudly because I was the first one done and that I wanted to read some more. So I go to the library and I didn't tell her the real reason why I went there was because I wanted to find out about my tribe and about my people. Because there was no books in the school about my people. And I would search the library for books about... at that time, we were called the Wisconsin Winnebago, and there was no books about Wisconsin Winnebago, and if there was, they were probably 50 years old. And I would only... I would end up going to the encyclopedias, and look up Winnebago or I look up Indian.

0:02:56.4 Tara Tindall: And by the time I was done with fifth grade, I knew pretty well about the Cherokee Trail of Tears. [Mmm.] And all throughout my academics from K, kindergarten, up to 12th grade, I did not ever learn about my people or my tribe. And I also wanted to mention that when I started school, when I started kindergarten, I was the first person to attend public school in my family. Yeah, in the '70s. Because before that, all my older siblings were attending a one-room Mission, Indian Mission School. So that was a big adjustment for our family. And growing up in Black River Falls in the '70s, attending public school, I guess you… it wasn't probably as bad as the '50s Civil Rights, but it was... I've seen a lot of violence. And it was usually directed towards the Native American males, my brothers, my cousins. So I grew up with that. And… and I also... When I did go to college, I got a degree, my undergrad, in history, because I wanted to learn more about all of the tribes in Wisconsin.

0:04:43.7 Tara Tindall: So I'm trying to make a long story as short as I can, but after working for my tribe for 10 years in Indian education, then I, um, I ended up moving to Alaska with my husband. We had a baby by then, and I ended up going to get my, um, teaching license in Alaska. And I was really fortunate because Alaska has a very supportive higher education system regarding indigenous education. And they also have a requirement that every, every teacher takes at least three courses that are related to American-Indian or Alaska native. And when I finished that one-year program, then I went to New Mexico to be a teacher in a classroom, in Gallup, New Mexico, where my students were 100- 99% Navajo speaking, and that really, um, enriched my life.

0:06:10.6 Tara Tindall: So after that, I became, I decided to come back here to Madison to go to college and get my Master's in Curriculum Instruction. I also decided to get, to become a reading teacher and a reading specialist. So after I completed my Madison academics, I got a job at my hometown in Black River Falls, where I served as an interventionist for four years for elementary students. But I decided I needed to change. So I applied here at MMSD. Partly, because I needed a change, but also because my children live here, in Madison and my grandchildren. And I've always felt a special connection to this land that we, the Ho-Chunk people, call Teejop.

0:07:14.5 Dr. Jenkins: Teejop.

0:07:15.2 Tara Tindall: Yeah, Teejop, it means Four Lakes, [mm-hmm] in our language.

0:07:22.1 Dr. Jenkins: Today, we have Mrs. Tara Tindall, and we're going to talk about what are our opportunities, and what are some of our challenges. First of all, I wanna start off and thank Marena Fox and Isa Saiz, because they were two students pretty much like Mrs. Tindall, going to school in the '70s, they're going to school now, [mm] right here in MMSD. And those two students said last year, that we don't see ourselves in the curriculum, we don't see ourselves on the walls, we don't see ourselves in the community. It’s as if though, Dr Jenkin, we don't exist. Wow. And that started some real conversation in our community as we try to lift the voices of our students and make everyone feel belonging as a part of our core values.

0:08:26.7 Dr. Jenkins: So Mrs. Tindall took part in us doing a land acknowledgment here in Madison Metropolitan School District. Every school will have a plaque. We talk about Teejop, we are all learning. Colonization is real. A process of erasing our indigenous people from this land. Today the land that we're on, the Ho-Chunk land. Ho-Chunk. We're all indebted and acknowledge where we are, and we start off many of our activities by acknowledging that. Can you talk about that a little bit? The land acknowledgment. And what did that mean to you, knowing that you too, are Ho-Chunk? And I'm glad that you went to New Mexico, get a chance to meet the Navajo. You mentioned a minute about, you know, Cherokee as well, Trail of Tears, but just, just talk. It's your mic, you're on the podcast, your show.

0:09:33.5 Tara Tindall: So I wanted to talk about the Indigenous invisibility that Marina Fox Baker and Isa Saiz talked about. That they felt like me in the '70s, did not see themselves or learn about themselves, or their people in the curriculum. But there's also the flip side about Indigenous invisibility, and that is wanting to be invisible. Because when you are noticed and you're often the only Native American in the school, then you get spotlighted as being the expert on everything Native. I also wanted to share about the status, um, called Urban Natives. Urban Natives are, is a term that's fairly new, and it's in comparison or contrast to Reservation Natives. So Reservation Natives are the ones who grew up on the reservation, and there's certain images or ideas that one has about Reservation Indians, they're all the negative stereotypes that you might have about natives; unemployed, and...

0:11:09.1 Tara Tindall: But I also wanted to share that, Reservation Natives and Urban Natives share a common history. [Mm-hmm]The common history is that they've experienced intergenerational historical trauma of families experiencing relocation, foster home placement, and out-of-tribe adoption, as well as the same trauma as Reservation Indians, such as the boarding schools. The boarding schools took place from about the 1880s up to maybe 20 years ago, where the children were taken away and placed in residential boarding schools far away across the country, most often. And sometimes these children did not come home. [Mmm] Last year, there was a large, large movement to recognize all the children that all lives matter, that Brown lives matter, because of our children that did not ever come home from the boarding schools. They were finding their bodies on the grounds of the Indian reservation boarding schools, or the boarding schools.

0:12:47.3 Dr. Jenkins: Did you say 20 years ago or 200 years ago? 

0:12:57.7 Tara Tindall: 20 years ago.

0:12:52.6 Dr. Jenkins: Wow.

0:12:54.5 Tara Tindall: So our Urban Natives, some of them are not aware of their own history, even our Reservation Native students are not aware of their own history [mm-hmm]. Like I was. So when we did that land acknowledgment, to me, I felt a sense of connection, I felt a sense of renewal, and I felt a sense of healing. [Mmm] I felt like my ancestors were there. [Mmm] All of the ones who fought off, who fought to protect the land, and to protect their families. I felt that their spirits were there, and that they were giving us all a boost. And.. it was very emotional for me because this is Ho-Chunk land. So it really, it means a lot. And I wanna thank you for that, and thank the School Board, and all of the community who supported that work. And I'm really glad to be here, because I feel like the work is continuing, the work is going on, including the work that I've been doing on, um, creating Native American lessons for K-5 social studies, and I also created a, um, a teacher - a Native American teacher readiness module, that all teachers would take when they started school this year.

0:14:56.1 Dr. Jenkins: Wow. What about the anti-racist work that you've also created, that I was just made aware of? Can you just tell us a little bit about that? We have a few minutes here, but I wanted everyone to hear this as well.

0:15:07.1 Tara Tindall: Yes. With the help of C and I staff, I did create a... I actually created two teacher modules. [Mm-hmm] One is a book study, and then the other one is the anti-resist module you're talking about it. [Right] So I give the teachers a pretty good knowledge base to go from on how to teach about American Indians, and dos and don'ts. And, for example, I suggest - do not use stereotypes in the classroom, do not use Native American mascots and certain phrases that might be offensive to a Native student. I encourage teachers to become knowledgeable about the 12 tribes of Wisconsin, and about Act 31, which is a state mandate that each public school in Wisconsin would offer learning opportunities about American Indian and Wisconsin tribes, twice in elementary and once in high school.

0:16:39.8 Dr. Jenkins: Wow. That's so appreciative, that you have focus and you haven't just focused by yourself, you have your colleagues as you acknowledge in C and I. And as a district, we are taking Act 31 very serious, right. To do the exposure twice, as we were talking about early on, and then once in high school, that's a minimum. We owe so much to Ho-Chunk, we owe so much to you as one of our leaders and you're doing wonderful things in our district. You are having an impact. The elders, when they came out for the land acknowledgement, that was powerful.

0:17:17.9 Dr. Jenkins: The room, you had to be in it to feel it, but there was a spirit and it was a togetherness. And you all are leading the way in our district. And just know our Board, our community, our students, and our staff, we're very proud to say the relationship that we have, and we're looking forward to you doing bigger things in our district as you continue your journey to become an administrator in MMSD, and that will happen. So best of luck to you. Thank you for listening in today. You heard it from one of our very own, Tara Tindall.

0:17:52 Student Speaker: You’re listening to Lead to Liberate, a podcast by the Madison Metropolitan School District, demonstrating how the more we know, the more we grow.